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Old 04-09-2009, 11:30 PM   #11
Craig Loizides
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I'd say do some longer workouts but just don't make them soul-crushing. Keep the intensity at something like 80% and maybe mix in a couple short periods of higher intensity. Most runners, rowers, etc train with 2-3 high intensity days plus a couple longer and easier days. And if you look at the scenario you described or most sports, it's important to be able to recover while working at a moderate intensity. I'm not sure that doing a 5 minute metcon followed by lying on the ground for 5 minutes is the best way to do this.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:44 PM   #12
Donald Lee
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Justin,

Longer conditioning workouts are necessary to optimally build the oxidative adaptations necessary for bouts of long duration. I would not do this in the manner that CrossFit does though.

I got this from Joel Jaimeson:

2 intervals of 20 minutes separated by 8-10 min of active rest
(step ups, hill lunges, etc.)

It would be ideal to do this with a versaclimber to work both upper and lower body, but I've had success with step-ups, RDLs, Backsquats, etc.

I did a 10-min interval of weighted step-ups and another 10-min interval of RDLs, with about 2-4 bouts of 60 min. extremely slow jogging and biking, and my 3-mile run time improved by 2 minutes in about 2-3 week's time. I could have run even faster if I had felt it necessary.

This type of training is not meant to be done to muscular failure though, so the RDLs and backsquats don't work perfectly. I have experimented with some complexes like thruster + bent over row + RDL + hang power clean, but my grip kept on giving out, even with straps. I've also done backsquat + goodmorning complex, which did work out fairly well, but I was unable to do it continuously. I had to take a few short breathers.

I equate this type of training to heavy rucking. It doesn't need to be done all the time. You can do it once a week for a month and do it every other month or even less frequently possibly.
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Old 04-10-2009, 06:54 AM   #13
Garrett Smith
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Ari,
I have helped Josh E. with his own adrenal fatigue situation and I have spoken on the phone with OPT about the tendency for CF to cause adrenal fatigue in CFers, we were very much on the same page.

It is an issue that isn't talked about much in that community, anything seen as a potential flaw in the program is brushed under the table.
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Old 04-10-2009, 07:18 AM   #14
George Mounce
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Ari,
I have helped Josh E. with his own adrenal fatigue situation and I have spoken on the phone with OPT about the tendency for CF to cause adrenal fatigue in CFers, we were very much on the same page.

It is an issue that isn't talked about much in that community, anything seen as a potential flaw in the program is brushed under the table.
Interesting, the Mayo clinic doctor calls adrenal fatigue BS, yet it seems more of a prevalent thing in the natural medicine circles. After having never seen this, I did a bunch of Google-fu and the common consensus among M.D.s is that there is no clinical evidence to prove the existence of "adrenal fatigue." Many sites go on to talk about Addison's and the like which are clinically proven cases.

Not saying it doesn't exist but I would be interested in studies to prove its existence.

This is kind of a hijack, I know, but when I see things as interesting as this I like more info. This is a great discussion on the subject for anyone else who is interested: http://www.cpnhelp.org/adrenal_fatigue
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Old 04-10-2009, 07:47 AM   #15
Garrett Smith
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George,
I could go on and on about this, but here's the gist.

Think of Addison's as a complete or near-complete failure of the adrenal glands, sort of like Type I diabetes is with the pancreas.

Just like in Type II diabetes being ignored/abused for long enough to cause the pancreas to eventually fail, note that there was a long time downhill--normal glycemia, then pre-diabetes, then diabetes type II, and then finally pancreas failure and insulin-dependent diabetes.

Think of adrenal fatigue as being within the pre-diabetes and diabetes range. It's not "normal", and it isn't complete failure of the glands either.

It is really sad to think that people aren't even given the "range" of functioning of cars--without the midrange of adrenal fatigue, it's like saying a car is either running perfectly or not at all, that there is no midrange. There really is, and the constant stress of our lives can "burn out" our adrenals over time.
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:00 AM   #16
George Mounce
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George,
I could go on and on about this, but here's the gist.

Think of Addison's as a complete or near-complete failure of the adrenal glands, sort of like Type I diabetes is with the pancreas.

Just like in Type II diabetes being ignored/abused for long enough to cause the pancreas to eventually fail, note that there was a long time downhill--normal glycemia, then pre-diabetes, then diabetes type II, and then finally pancreas failure and insulin-dependent diabetes.

Think of adrenal fatigue as being within the pre-diabetes and diabetes range. It's not "normal", and it isn't complete failure of the glands either.

It is really sad to think that people aren't even given the "range" of functioning of cars--without the midrange of adrenal fatigue, it's like saying a car is either running perfectly or not at all, that there is no midrange. There really is, and the constant stress of our lives can "burn out" our adrenals over time.
Thanks Garrett, great comparison. So therefore too much stress over a long period of time without rest overtaxes the adrenal system and without proper rest management, the system can't recover. Proper diet and rest are crucial to health and longevity. I'm become more and more a fan of NEPA like activities over the super intense short activities. Hell the 8 hours in my garden yesterday was intense!

Back to the OP - my thoughts are that the answer is "enough to fulfill your purpose". Whether its to play with your kids or to win the CF games, you manage how much you want based on your goals. I would put the CF games as the extreme though as that level of work capacity is not sustainable over a lifetime. You can be a fire-breather for a few years, but you don't find 70yos playing pro football. It fits your purpose at the time. For me mine is enough to get good enough to compete on the erg and work my garden.
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:06 AM   #17
Gant Grimes
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I remember watching a video of Dave Castro on programing a while back and basically what he said was that good CF programming should consist primarily of couplets and triplets (two and three modality workouts respectively). That you can use a chipper workout every once in a while but they should be use sparingly because of all the reasons others have already mentioned above.

So it would seem to me that the "official" CF line would be to use chippers very sparingly and to keep most workouts in the shorter metcon time domain.
Leo S. suggested this to me over a year ago, and it's some of the best advice I ever received. It was completely contrary to what CF was doing at the time. Nice to see that they've come around.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:11 AM   #18
Garrett Smith
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George,
Here's something that I was definitely not the first one to notice.

Often conventional medicine and those who want to call everything that they haven't heard of "quackery", will deny the existence of syndromes (adrenal fatigue is a syndrome) that:

1 - they don't know how to test for in the first place
2 - consist of simply low functioning of the body systems
3 - there isn't a drug created yet to treat that symptom(s)

Lyrica (new patented drug!) and the new "explosion" of fibromyalgia diagnoses (fibromyalgia was denied by conventional medicine for a VERY long time) would be one recent example of this pattern.

Disclaimer--I have recently been hired by Future Formulations, the company of Dr. James Wilson (triple PhD, ND, DC), the man who "wrote the book" on Adrenal Fatigue. We will soon enough be working on a fully reference position paper on adrenal fatigue syndrome. Their website is www.adrenalfatigue.org , anyone interested in more information should read the book by Dr. Wilson.
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:37 AM   #19
Steven Low
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Maybe 2-3 of the 20-40 min workouts per month max IMO. Once every 2 weeks sounds decent.

Speaking as such though I don't think it's these workouts that are burning people out because intensity NEEDS to be lower to complete these. It's A LOT of short intense workouts then coupled with these that toast people.


And speaking as someone who probably burned out their adrenals... it sucks balls. I hate resting so I'm trying to take it very light.
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:50 AM   #20
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It's better to be rested and ready to go if your real goal is 24/7 GPP, rather than burned out and useless. It's alot different to use overtraining and then be able to take downtime to peak before a competition than to go full force all the time and be expected to perform day in and out.

I'm going to steal a line from Mark Sisson: "Make your easy workouts longer and easier and your hard workouts shorter and harder"

Us "old" guys (over 35) tend to know that less is more when it comes to training nowadays.....as I'm in it for the long haul.
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