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Old 01-27-2007, 05:43 PM   #11
Robb Wolf
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I was tinkering with split clean one leg forward, then split jerk with the other leg. I would not recommend this for a competitive OL'er but I really enjoyed them. I also have a tendency towards some anterior hip rotation on the right side due to kick boxing and the alternating stance seems to help remedy this problem.
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Old 01-28-2007, 02:18 PM   #12
Allison Barns
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Thanks for posting those links!
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Old 01-29-2007, 01:12 PM   #13
Elliot Royce
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Default Split Snatches

My O lifting coach, Gary Valentine, who recently set the New England masters' record for snatch and C&J (111/155), asked me to post the following comment, together with pictures (his computer was acting up):

"point would be that many who believe they cannot squat are often using too much back and arm swing in the lift, which is why they can't squat. if indeed they think they are splitters, they should be hitting the depth pictured in the attachments, which would mean they are truly splitting, not justifying using the back and and arms too much, which is easy to get away with in a shallow split."
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Old 01-29-2007, 02:49 PM   #14
Greg Everett
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My argument against the split in general is pretty basic:

with the split photos above, yes, the hips are getting nearly as low as they would in a squat (but not quite as low). But then you've essentially got 1 leg to stand up with. Granted, your back leg is not entirely useless and you can shimmy your way up if necessary, but that of course then adds another balancing element to the problem. Also, notice in each of those photos that Dude is up on the toes of the front foot--necessary to achieve that depth without throwing the foot farther out front--which then further reduces the potential rising strength and adds more of a balance problem.

I'm not arguing that people can't lift huge loads with a split style--however, I would argue that the ones who can are few and far between. It takes greater leg speed to hit that position, and for most, who won't be hitting the depth pictured above, it takes a higher pull. The evolution of the sport from the split to squat style was not an accident.

Josh Everett is a good example of a guy who is both remarkably quick and has an extremely powerful pull. He said he chose to stick with the split because the flexibility limitations that prevented him from performing the squat style successfully appeared to be incorrectable. So in his case, the split allows him to lift more. However, I can't imagine that he wouldn't be capable of lifting even more were he able to achieve the flexibility for the squat style.

So of course this is a very individual matter--in each case, I would ask:

1. How much work are you willing to do to be able to squat?

2. Is your present inability to squat genuinely incorrectable to the necessary degree, or are you just impatient (understandable)?

3. What are your ultimate goals for the lifts--as a tool for conditioning, for general fitness, to lift as much as possible in the gym, or to be competitive on the local, national or international level?
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Old 01-29-2007, 11:36 PM   #15
Rick Deckart
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Gary Valentine? That's a good choice Elliot!

Greg,

Your points are valid, same is true for Gary Valentines points.

I can only talk for myself:

1. As much as it takes, my OHS is not too shabby the problem is more or less twofold a) too much armpull b) 'mental', that is technique breaks down once a certain weight (>65kg) is involved. I never had a coach and learned the lifts by trial and error. Strengthwise I think I should be able to squat snatch 80kg+ now. So noticing that I tied my snatch PR in the first split attempt I will use splitting as a confidence builder. BTW I could not split higher loads with the left leg in front due to old injuries in my right big toe which was once broken and is now more or less stiff. Surgery could cure it but I have no time for it and foot surgery is not trivial and inherently risky business.

2) Probably, as I have very stiff ankles nowadays. But we will see.

3) My goal is a consistent BW snatch, after that we will see. I am too old to compete.

Regards,

Peter
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Old 01-30-2007, 04:18 AM   #16
Allen Yeh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Puetz View Post

I can only talk for myself:

2) Probably, as I have very stiff ankles nowadays. But we will see.

Peter
Peter,

Take a look at this link I ran across it a couple of weeks ago


It's a little video on some ankle mobility stuff the tennis ball stuff can be a bit painful but Bill Hartman seems to know what he's talking about in this regard.

Nothing much else to contribute toward the split snatch stuff but an interesting read and I look forward to anything else Gary Valentine might have to contribute.
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Old 01-30-2007, 07:02 AM   #17
Elliot Royce
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I am very fortunate in having Gary about 25 minutes away from me in Wilton, CT and in his being willing to spend 2 hours with me every weekend. The progress I've made with him is amazing (of course, there is also an amazingly long way to go).

What I would say is that if someone as inflexible as I am can start to do squat snatches and cleans, then pretty much anyone can. Maybe not with incredibly high weights but high enough for conditioning purposes.

Frankly, there is no way I would want to get stuck in that position (the photo is of Waldemar Baszanowski, Olympic gold medalist in 1964 and 1968). At least with a squat you don't risk a groin rupture or something!
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Old 01-30-2007, 11:59 AM   #18
Gary Valentine
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thanks guys.
without seeing the original poster split, my input is just that many times ive seen lifters frustrated with doing a squat version of the lift, and "discover" splitting. the problem most times is not whether they are splitting or sqautting, its that the pull is incorrect, not allowing the lifter to move properly to finish the lift. by that i mean if the lifter is using too much back and arms in the lift, which is very very common especially when starting by learning the power clean without a coach, he wont be able to do a proper sqaut OR split. the timing is negatively affected if you stand there too long trying to pull it higher. this is easier too get away with if you finish with a shallow split, but does not address the problem. regular squatting form should be addressed too. if the lifter regulalry sqauts shallow or bentover, this of course carries over into the attempt to do the sqaut versions of the lifts. so strict flexible form in all forms of sqauts must be learned first.
the test would be if you could land in the full split position as pictured, you probably have done the pull correctly. whichever you'ld like to use for your own training purposes is up to you, and clearly the squat version allows more weight to be lifted, and with balanced development over time. but either way, the pull should be efficient.-g
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Old 01-30-2007, 12:29 PM   #19
Bill Ripley
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A couple of people, including John Coffee, have suggested that I consider split style because of my age (45). The theory being that split style allows more time to get under the bar. Comments?
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Old 01-30-2007, 01:39 PM   #20
Gary Valentine
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well, you'll have a hard time convincing me age has anything to do with it:-) sunday i sqaut clean and jerked 150 kg, front sqautted 190, and clean pulled 170 for 5 sets of 3. i'm 50.
thats the whole thing in a nutshell - lift in the right positions so that the stresses imposed are developmental, not detrimental; and rest enough between workouts to fully recover, whatever it takes.-g
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