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Old 05-10-2009, 12:06 PM   #11
glennpendlay
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Brian,

I'm not sure what relationship you and Richard have, but I do find it odd that he told you to do snatch/clean and jerk but didnt give you any ideas about specific programming. Why dont you just ask him what he recomends?

But I do have to go against the grain here, and say that from what I've seen of your lifting, a snatch and clean and jerk program sounds good to me. I might add in front squats, but thats about it.

I think we have talked about this type of program before...

Mon/wed/fri/

12-15 snatches. Start around 80 kilos and move up as able.
8-12 clean and jerks. Start around 100 kilos and move up as able.
2-3 singles on front squat, heavy as you are able.

If you are fairly effecient at the Olympic lifts, that is, your lifts are significant percentages of your squat/deadlift strength, then this is an INCREDIBLY demanding program.


I will add one more thing here. And its in no way meant to be disprespectful to anyone else on this forum or thread. The idea that you have to do lots of squatting, heavy pulls or deadlifts, upper body work, etc, to gain strength or to get a good workout when OLing is false. I believe this idea comes from the experience of most, who are not specializing on the Olympic lifts, and whose effeciency and technique are not really great.

Take your "average" general strength athlete, crossfitter, gym rat, who might deadlift 450lbs, squat 400lbs, clean 225, and do an ugly powersnatch with 175. The feeling and effect that such a person will get from doing the Olympic lifts is COMPLETELY different from the feeling that someone who is specializing on the lifts, and pretty good and effecient at the lifts will have.

10 clean and jerks with 300lbs, when your front squat max is 320 and your deadlift and backsquat max is 350... is a whole different proposition.

Again, this is not meant to disparage people who arent OLers. Its very cool that people who are more "generalists" include the Olympic lifts in their programs. I am always happy to see that, and everyone should know what their max clean is, or they cant really call themselves a lifter! Specializing is not for everyone, or even for most, and I have the utmost respect for those who are all-around strong and in good shape. going in that direction myself lately, in fact.

But, just like the guy who just got his first muscle-up still doesnt really know anything about how a high level competitive rings routine feels, the guy whose clean is 50% of his deadlift doesnt really know much about how a workout of snatch and clean and jerk feels to a skilled competitive lifter.

glenn
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Old 05-10-2009, 12:28 PM   #12
Dave Van Skike
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this makes me want to try the oly lifts but then I think how long it would take to get from the shitty powerclean i have now to squat clean with a decent % of my max pull ... I just don't have that many years left.
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Old 05-10-2009, 12:39 PM   #13
Brian Lawyer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpendlay View Post
I will add one more thing here. And its in no way meant to be disprespectful to anyone else on this forum or thread. The idea that you have to do lots of squatting, heavy pulls or deadlifts, upper body work, etc, to gain strength or to get a good workout when OLing is false. I believe this idea comes from the experience of most, who are not specializing on the Olympic lifts, and whose effeciency and technique are not really great.
Yes everybody, I do talk to my coach I was just seeing what ideas you all had, which is not very many apparently . While this thread has been growing my coach and I came up with a few good ideas.

Thanks Glenn. What you said above was what I was trying to explain to these guys except you definitly know how to articulate it much more. Plus you are more authoratative than I am. Also, coach and I have a good relationship except that sometimes I don't listen to him or believe what he tells me...ha.

So as noted above, I have been going back and forth with my coach via email while this thread has been growing. He is not much of a blogger. Here is what we came up with for those who may be in a similar training situation as myself, that is, you have a decent strength base and really just need to get consistent with the Snatch and CJ.

Basic Criteria: 3 days per week split, 1 hour to 1.5 hour per workout, if I feel bad go lighter, if I feel good go heavier, use the following workout options which can be done in any order or any frequency:

Workout 1:
sn 4-6 sets of 3 reps with working weight (working weight = 65% - 75% depending how I feel)
CJ 5-7 sets of two CJ's with working weight

Workout 2:
20/20 workout. AKA Joe mills workout. I really like doing this workout. This one is great at helping you get consistent with your lifts. Look it up online if you don't know what I am talking about.

Workout 3:
Sn 12-18 singles on the minute 80-90% depending on how I feel.
CJ 15-21 singles on the 1.5 minute 80-90%

Workout 4:
Max per day. Do proper warmup reps and sets then take 3 attempts at a PR or close to a PR.

Workout 5 (what glenn said above):
12-15 snatches. Start around 80 kilos and move up as able.
8-12 clean and jerks. Start around 100 kilos and move up as able.
2-3 singles on front squat, heavy as you are able.

For any of these you can add the heavy single front squats like Glenn said.

Questions/comments....
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Old 05-10-2009, 12:45 PM   #14
Brian Lawyer
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So there you all go, "Just the O'Lifts, ma'am. Nothing but the O'Lifts". Let me qualify the above program by saying I am in no way qualified to give any body a workout program...haha. But I am going to try the above program myself for a month or so. I got 5 days to choose from which should give me some decent variety. I have two great O'lifting coaches I talk with on a regular basis who both seem to agree I just need to O'Lift for a little while and take out all the fluff for a little while.
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:09 PM   #15
Brian Lawyer
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Originally Posted by glennpendlay View Post
I'm not sure what relationship you and Richard have...
Side note to Glenn, Richard says I analyze too much and read too many books when I should just snatch and CJ. I have to agree with him and admit he is probably right as evidenced by this thread I started.....have a good one!
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:21 PM   #16
Timothy Scalise
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There is nothing wrong with cutting the fat in the program. the Tommy Kono program is snatch, clean and jerk, pulls, and front squats as it is in his book, Tommy is my coach, and he doesnt really care if you can do a heavy pull or not, but how much you can snatch and clean and jerk. If I was going to do 3 days a week I would do both lifts all 3 days, or one lift mon, wed, both on friday like G said. if you only did one the first 2 days, then I would do lots of singles, work up to a daily max, back down and up again. Personaly I would do both lifts both days just change the order up so one day was more of a focus on snatch, while the next would be on cleans. so run that by your coach and see what he thinks, and good luck.
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:32 PM   #17
Brian Lawyer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Scalise View Post
... Tommy is my coach...
Timothy, You get to train with Kono! I thought I was cool because I got to train with Glenn a couple times...no offense Glenn...
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:55 PM   #18
glennpendlay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lawyer View Post
Timothy, You get to train with Kono! I thought I was cool because I got to train with Glenn a couple times...no offense Glenn...
Tommy Kono? who's he?


I've talked to Tommy a number of times, though not so much about training. But I'm familiar with his philosophies on OLing. They are the same as the majority of other successful coaches... put all the effort you can into quality work on the competitive lifts. Big squats and deadlifts dont matter much. And the mental side of the game is much bigger than most people think.

Timothy, do you think this is an accurate representation of Tommy's thoughts on training?

glenn
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:10 PM   #19
Timothy Scalise
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I was pulling once, about 30 kg more than what I could clean, and he said , it looks like a deadlift with a shrug, use less weight so you can be explosive. I love Tommy, I in no way can fully relay Tommy at this point, as im still learning, I do say that he is always preaching technique. I went a long time without training with him and picked up some bad habbits, two weeks ago I worked with him one day, and my max lifts are now easier just from fixing my starting position. As far as training he usally says 3 days a week, snatch, clean and jerk, snatch pulls, clean pull, front squat. He told me that about a half an hour on snatch and clean and jerk, half an hour on pulls, half an hour on squat 2 hours, anything over that and your just tired and picking up bad form. Also, if your thinking too much, wich you tend to do when you first start training with him cause he has SO MUCH INFO to give, you over think everything lol, then usally just move on to the next thing. He is all about quatlity training, not pushing past what you are good with. no point in doing something if it is not crisp, clean, and technical. Seriously though that guy can watch you lift 3 times, and pick it apart to the smallest thing and work wonders if your willing to listen.
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:14 PM   #20
Timothy Scalise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Scalise View Post
There is nothing wrong with cutting the fat in the program. the Tommy Kono program is snatch, clean and jerk, pulls, and front squats as it is in his book, Tommy is my coach, and he doesnt really care if you can do a heavy pull or not, but how much you can snatch and clean and jerk. If I was going to do 3 days a week I would do both lifts all 3 days, or one lift mon, wed, both on friday like G said. if you only did one the first 2 days, then I would do lots of singles, work up to a daily max, back down and up again. Personaly I would do both lifts both days just change the order up so one day was more of a focus on snatch, while the next would be on cleans. so run that by your coach and see what he thinks, and good luck.
let me fix something, it doesnt seem to matter to him if you can pull heavy if your goal is to snatch and clean and jerk, it matters how much you can clean and jerk. That is what I have picked up. He is big on squating though, the guys that all train with him, told me that he used to not train people unless they could squat 400, I havnt asked him that so I dont know for sure. But he is always saying to get a big squat to have big O lifts
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