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Old 07-17-2009, 06:59 PM   #1
Brandon Enos
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My best friends mom is in serious trouble and I need to know more ways to help. I love this woman. She is my second mom and I am so scared..

She's overweight (severely) and has major back pain and from what I understand, starting stages of osteoporosis. They knew her kidneys were in trouble, but werent sure how bad so she had tests done. They got the results back today..

The kidneys are in stage 3 out of 5 of kidney failure. Her liver is shot..the doctor is telling her no alcohol, pain pills, or red meat. She had an EKG done, it somehow came back great but somehow part of her heart is failing. She has low potassium too. Plus the back pain and osteoporosis...

Being an EMT who works for a company that focuses on inter-facility transports, I see where she is going to end up..shes going the path of most my patients.

They live in Bakersfield, Im up near SF. But I am going down this Monday for a week to help out, I am taking over the kitchen. The week I'm there, they (my friend and her mom) are eating nothing but primal, just no red meat (given the seriousness of the situation, dont want to fight with the doctor completely). Im also going to try to get her to go walking with us. Im also going to give them my copy of The Primal Blueprint to read. And I know my friend will do her best to stay on her moms ass, but she is stubborn.

I need serious help here. I know shes going to have to want to change, but I just cant sitback and do nothing...any tips. Anything at all that anyone thinks can help?
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Old 07-17-2009, 07:12 PM   #2
Mike ODonnell
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I admire your willingness to help....but also make sure she is wanting to help herself first of all. If the thought of dying isn't enough to want someone to change their ways.....well I don't know what is.

Milk thistle I hear can help the liver....also don't go crazy on the fats (esp sat) as her liver is already compromised. Fruits...veggies...all that good stuff.

This is serious....so always make sure she has some medical guidance along the way....as you and I eating is one thing....but someone with a completely messed up system is another. Slow and steady,make sure she knows it's a longterm battle and not a quick fix....but she has to want to help herself first and foremost. Give her some tough love....whatever it takes to get the message across........have compassion, but don't don't empower her own self pity.
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:43 AM   #3
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I spotted and interesting study in the news today about sodium bicarbonate and kidney failure - Link. Not sure how relevant it is to your friend but it might be worth her discussing it with her doctor

As far as diet goes she should just follow whatever diet her doctor recommends, that might mean low protein, low sodium, low potassium or whatever but she'll probably need to have regular check-ups to see how her kidneys respond to it.

Re. osteoporosis, my mother was diagnosed with it a couple of years ago so I've read a few books on the subject and the one I always recommend to people is Understanding, Preventing and Overcoming Osteoporosis by Prof. Jane Plant and Gill Tidey. It contains a lot of solid information about how and why osteoporosis develops, why it's so common in the West and gives dietary advice based on the potential renal acid load (PRAL) of foods. The diet they recommend is basically the traditional Chinese diet which should be okay for someone with CKD but she should check with her doctor just in case it messes with her kidneys.
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Old 07-18-2009, 08:22 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
why osteoporosis develops, why it's so common in the West and gives dietary advice based on the potential renal acid load (PRAL) of foods.
As much as I agree that people need a variety of foods in their diets (meats, veggies, fruits, healthy fats)....I don't buy the whole osteoporosis "Acidic PH" line as touted by vegetarians....seems more like paperback selling science. There are many complicated systems at work for bone density....and not just some Ph load in the diet. Although eating for a Ph balance is essentially eating responsibly anyways....and the biggest culprits still are usually sodas, sugar, alcohol, processed foods, breads, and excess dairy (esp cheese).

Quote:
Vegetarian diet leads to lower bone density

They found there was practically no difference between meat eaters and ovolactovegetarians and the difference between meat eaters and vegans, was small and reached the conclusion that vegetarians as a group have lower BMD than meat eaters, but say whether the difference translates into increased fracture risk has yet to be resolved.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/200...e-density.aspx
also Weston Price has a good page on Meat and Bone Loss:

Quote:
The "acid-ash" of meat is given as the reason high meat diets cause bone loss. But meats also supply phosphorus, which counteracts this acidity. Phosphorus is needed for the phosphate component of bone matter. Meats are also excellent sources of vitamin B12, which plays a recently discovered but little understood role in maintaining the integrity of the bones.

http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtbones.html
The message is always the same in the end.....eat real foods....eat a variety....stay away from rancid/unstable fats....and the body takes care of itself.....go crazy eating other crap and the body will self destruct. Myself and Scott also just did a course on eating real foods...maybe if she reads stuff like that she will understand what changes SHE needs to make for the better: http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/univ...h-and-food.htm
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:00 AM   #5
Darryl Shaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
As much as I agree that people need a variety of foods in their diets (meats, veggies, fruits, healthy fats)....I don't buy the whole osteoporosis "Acidic PH" line as touted by vegetarians....seems more like paperback selling science.
If you'd read Prof. Plant's book you'd know that she does not recommend either a vegetarian or vegan diet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell
There are many complicated systems at work for bone density....and not just some Ph load in the diet. Although eating for a Ph balance is essentially eating responsibly anyways....and the biggest culprits still are usually sodas, sugar, alcohol, processed foods, breads, and excess dairy (esp cheese).

Quote:
Vegetarian diet leads to lower bone density

They found there was practically no difference between meat eaters and ovolactovegetarians and the difference between meat eaters and vegans, was small and reached the conclusion that vegetarians as a group have lower BMD than meat eaters, but say whether the difference translates into increased fracture risk has yet to be resolved.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/200...e-density.aspx
It is true that vegetarians tend to have lower BMD than people consuming an omnivorous diet however from studying the rate of hip fracture incidence in elderly women it seems clear that those eating largely plant based diets which are relatively low (but still adequate) in protein from all sources have stronger healthier bones than those eating high protein diets.

Quote:
Worldwide Incidence of Hip Fracture in Elderly Women
Relation to Consumption of Animal and Vegetable Foods.


ABSTRACT

Background.
Hip fracture, a major health problem in elderly persons, varies in incidence among the populations of different countries and is directly related to animal protein intake, a finding that suggests that bone integrity is compromised by endogenous acid production consequent to the metabolism of animal proteins. If that is so, vegetable foods might provide a countervailing effect, because they are a rich source of base (bicarbonate) in the form of metabolizable organic anions, which can neutralize protein-derived acid and supply substrate (carbonate) for bone formation.

Methods. We analyzed reported hip fracture incidence (HFI) data among countries (N = 33) in women aged 50 years and older, in relation to corresponding country-specific data on per capita consumption of vegetable and animal foods as reported by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization.

Results. HFI varied directly with total (r = +.67, p < .001) and animal (r = +.82, p < .001) protein intake and inversely with vegetable protein intake (r = -.37, p < .04). The countries in the lowest tertile of HFI (n = 11) had the lowest animal protein consumption, and invariably, vegetable protein (VP) consumption exceeded the country's corresponding intake of animal protein (AP): VP/AP > 1.0. By contrast, among the countries in the highest tertile of HFI, animal protein intake exceeded vegetable protein intake in nearly every case (10 of 11 countries). Among all countries, HFI correlated inversely and exponentially with the ratio of vegetable/animal protein intake (r = -.84, p < .001) and accounted for 70% of the total variation in HFI. Adjusted for total protein intake, vegetable food consumption was an independent negative predictor of HFI. All findings were similar for the subset of 23 countries whose populations are predominantly Caucasian.

Conclusion. The findings suggest that the critical determinant of hip fracture risk in relation to the acid-base effects of diet is the net load of acid in the diet, when the intake of both acid and base precursors is considered. Moderation of animal food consumption and an increased ratio of vegetable/animal food consumption may confer a protective effect.

IN 1992, Abelow and coworkers reported that the incidence of hip fractures in women aged 50 years and older correlates positively with a country's average annual per capita consumption of animal protein (1). Noting that animal protein is a rich source of sulfur-containing amino acids, which the body metabolizes to the fixed acid sulfuric acid, Abelow and coworkers interpreted the positive correlation of hip fracture rate and animal protein intake as consistent with the hypothesis that hip fractures result in part from deleterious effects of prolonged exposure to dietary acid (2)(3).

If that interpretation is correct, however, the decisive risk factor for hip fracture would not be the rate of production of fixed acid (sulfuric acid) from animal protein but the net rate of endogenous acid production, when all sources of dietary acid and base are considered. Net endogenous acid production is determined by dietary factors in addition to animal protein intake, including factors that result in endogenous base production and that attenuate or counteract the acid-producing effect of animal protein (4). Vegetable foods in particular are rich in bicarbonate and in organic anions that can be metabolized to bicarbonate (5)(6), which in turn reduces the net rate of endogenous acid production for a given rate of sulfuric acid production (7).

Accordingly, for any protein intake, the net rate of endogenous acid production may vary over a substantial range, depending on the relative intakes of animal and vegetable foods. Taking vegetable food consumption into consideration, therefore, is necessary to fully assess the net acid-base effect of diet and to determine whether the hip fracture rate correlates with net endogenous acid production. One cannot predict a priori whether the contribution of vegetable foods will weaken or strengthen the case for a positive association between hip fracture rate and net acid production based on consideration of animal foods consumption alone.

This study examines the cross-cultural relation between hip fracture incidence (HFI) and acid-base potential of the diet, taking into consideration the consumption of both vegetable and animal foods.

http://biomed.gerontologyjournals.or...ull/55/10/M585


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell
also Weston Price has a good page on Meat and Bone Loss:

Quote:
The "acid-ash" of meat is given as the reason high meat diets cause bone loss. But meats also supply phosphorus, which counteracts this acidity. Phosphorus is needed for the phosphate component of bone matter. Meats are also excellent sources of vitamin B12, which plays a recently discovered but little understood role in maintaining the integrity of the bones.


http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtbones.html
Hmmm......let's see, on the one hand we have Professor Plant CBE Chief Scientist of the British Geological Survey with decades of published peer reviewed research behind her and on the other hand we have Sally Fallon co-founder of an organisation devoted to selling her own cookbooks.......

Who to believe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell
The message is always the same in the end.....eat real foods....eat a variety....stay away from rancid/unstable fats....and the body takes care of itself.....go crazy eating other crap and the body will self destruct. Myself and Scott also just did a course on eating real foods...maybe if she reads stuff like that she will understand what changes SHE needs to make for the better: http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/univ...h-and-food.htm
You went on a course to learn how to eat real foods? What were you eating before?
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:33 AM   #6
Garrett Smith
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I'd suggest you try to find a naturopathic doctor in the area to help with guidance and suggestions, maybe one that will do a house call or two.

www.findnd.com
and
http://naturopathic.org/AF_MemberDir....asp?version=2
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:09 AM   #7
Mike ODonnell
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If you'd read Prof. Plant's book you'd know that she does not recommend either a vegetarian or vegan diet.

Hmmm......let's see, on the one hand we have Professor Plant CBE Chief Scientist of the British Geological Survey with decades of published peer reviewed research behind her and on the other hand we have Sally Fallon co-founder of an organisation devoted to selling her own cookbooks.......

Who to believe?
Really....Really? Which one of many books that Prof Plant wrote is not for profit?
Quote:
from her website: "You may have read other books such as The Plant Programme, Eat Your way to Better Health or the book on Osteoporosis - all packed with delicious healthy recipes- that she has written with her friend and fellow scientist Gill Tidey"
Come on......how many cookbooks from Prof Plant have you bought?

Quote:
You went on a course to learn how to eat real foods? What were you eating before?
Ummmm.......No....WROTE a course.....hence the whole url link to it and everything.

The reality is that nowadays when looking at a "society" that is higher in meat consumption....chances are you are also looking at a society that has been "Westernized" with more dietary factors involved such as heavy meat processing (are the people eating steak or hamburgers), higher intake of processed foods (sodas, artificial sweeteners, sugars, higher sodium) and also probably higher intakes of processed dairy (milk/cheese). That doesn't even take into effect the net toxic load in the environment (foods, lifestyle) that could be contributing to hormonal (esp estrogen) disruptions.

That net "acidic" load on the body is far worse for your average "modern meat eater" than someone who focuses on eating a moderate 20-30% of dietary intake of protein with adequate focus also on the intake of fruits/vegetables (say like a Mediterranean/Paleo diet type of diet) and avoidance of processed foods.

The message is still the same....no matter who is trying to sell cookbooks.
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Old 07-21-2009, 05:07 AM   #8
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Mike,

I just spent about twenty minutes picking holes in everything you said but after reading it realised that I was being an asshole and deleted it.

We probably agree on more stuff than we disagree on and there's little to be gained from arguing over some trivial differences of opinion so I'll say just say sorry for any offence I may have caused and drop it.
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:32 PM   #9
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Hope everything works out code 4 bro.
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Old 07-22-2009, 07:53 AM   #10
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Mike,

I just spent about twenty minutes picking holes in everything you said but after reading it realised that I was being an asshole and deleted it.

We probably agree on more stuff than we disagree on and there's little to be gained from arguing over some trivial differences of opinion so I'll say just say sorry for any offence I may have caused and drop it.
No worries...all good....as I am sure I have come off "pissy" in my responses from time to time....but we can all learn from each other and none of us has to be right all the time....too many variables I think out there for any one solution to be the only answer all the time, and most of us agree on 85% of the same stuff anyways.....and thanks to your stuff in the past, it has created more personal awareness in knowing that I need more veggies in my diet!
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