Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Training > Other

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-19-2009, 07:45 PM   #1
Neal Winkler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 326
Default Paradox of posterior chain recruitment

How come running and jumping by exerting force through the forefoot recruits the posterior chain, but pushing though the heels while squating/DL/lunging does the same and pushing off the balls of the feet inhibits recruitment of the posterior chain?
Neal Winkler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 04:29 AM   #2
Steven Low
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,091
Default

Running, jumping, the hip is extending violently = glutes/hammies

Squatting and DLing you can emphasize posterior chain through pushing heels because it focuses on pulling your hips forward (hip extension) rather than knee extension (which is quads).

Shifting weight onto the forefoot focuses more on the knee extension.. which is more quads. In running and jumping, the knee is only slightly bent at impact into the triple extension phase which means that quads are nominally recruited.
__________________
Posts NOT intended as professional medical, training or nutrition advice.
Site // Bodyweight Strength Training Article // Overcoming Gravity Bodyweight Book
Steven Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 11:55 AM   #3
Donald Lee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 646
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Running, jumping, the hip is extending violently = glutes/hammies

Squatting and DLing you can emphasize posterior chain through pushing heels because it focuses on pulling your hips forward (hip extension) rather than knee extension (which is quads).

Shifting weight onto the forefoot focuses more on the knee extension.. which is more quads. In running and jumping, the knee is only slightly bent at impact into the triple extension phase which means that quads are nominally recruited.
Steven,

I disagree. It seems like you've gotten caught up in the posterior chain craze. The quads are very important for sprinting and jumping. In fact, in vertical jumping, the quads are more involved than the posterior chain.
Donald Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 12:11 PM   #4
Neal Winkler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 326
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
Steven,

I disagree. It seems like you've gotten caught up in the posterior chain craze. The quads are very important for sprinting and jumping. In fact, in vertical jumping, the quads are more involved than the posterior chain.
Donald, that still doesn't answer the question. Could you elaborate more?
Neal Winkler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 01:13 PM   #5
Donald Lee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 646
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Winkler View Post
Donald, that still doesn't answer the question. Could you elaborate more?
Well, running is to some extent a horizontal movement. I think the quads play a bigger role in the vertical component of running, while the posterior chain plays a bigger role in the horizontal component. Try pulling your leg back horizontally while landing on your heels. You can't until you roll over onto the ball of your foot. Your gastrocnemius muscle is also one of the muscles that flex your knee, so by landing on your heel, you're inhibiting knee flexion until you roll over onto the ball of your foot. But, theoretically you can still have the exact same running technique post-landing on the heel as with landing on the ball of your foot, which will mean similar recruitment of the quads/posterior chain. However, that doesn't tend to happen often.

With squatting/DLing, you lose stability if you go onto the balls of your feet. Your knees will also tend to come forward, which increases the lever arm from your knees, which increases the recruitment of your quads. You will also be passively contracting your hamstrings, which will lessen hamstring recruitment. With squatting, this is more of a problem with PL-style squatting.

I can't really say much more, because I haven't read too much into biomechanics yet.
Donald Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 01:35 PM   #6
Steven Low
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,091
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
Steven,

I disagree. It seems like you've gotten caught up in the posterior chain craze. The quads are very important for sprinting and jumping. In fact, in vertical jumping, the quads are more involved than the posterior chain.
I don't disagree with anything you stated (biomechanically), but the relative contributions of the posterior chain are more important than the quads obviously.

Running is more posterior chain because of the contacting pull off the ground to the propelling forward is more hip extension.

Jumping has a relatively large quad SSC, and accelerational from the the SSC. The hams, especially, aren't recruited as much because there is less of a change in total hip angle and acceleration.
__________________
Posts NOT intended as professional medical, training or nutrition advice.
Site // Bodyweight Strength Training Article // Overcoming Gravity Bodyweight Book
Steven Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 02:38 PM   #7
Garrett Smith
Senior Member
 
Garrett Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,368
Default

Might it simply be where the center of gravity of the body is in relationship to the base of support? That might seem to account for a major portion of the difference.
__________________
Garrett Smith NMD CSCS BS, aka "Dr. G"
RepairRecoverRestore.com - Blood, Saliva, and Stool Testing
My radio show - The Path to Strength and Health
Garrett Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2009, 04:55 PM   #8
Steven Low
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,091
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
Might it simply be where the center of gravity of the body is in relationship to the base of support? That might seem to account for a major portion of the difference.
Nah, center of mass is pretty much centered over the mid/forefoot in both sprinting and vertical when the triple extension occurs in both.

Of course, in sprinting your body is slightly leaned forwards, but it shouldn't make a significant contribution.
__________________
Posts NOT intended as professional medical, training or nutrition advice.
Site // Bodyweight Strength Training Article // Overcoming Gravity Bodyweight Book
Steven Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 09:23 AM   #9
Scott Kustes
Senior Member
 
Scott Kustes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 1,048
Default

There is little, if any, horizontal component once you are out of acceleration. Once the body hits the max velocity phase (i.e., upright running), the ground force component in sprinting is vertical. Quad recruitment is minor at this point.
__________________
Scott

Fitness Spotlight
Scott Kustes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2009, 11:59 AM   #10
Donald Lee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 646
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Kustes View Post
There is little, if any, horizontal component once you are out of acceleration. Once the body hits the max velocity phase (i.e., upright running), the ground force component in sprinting is vertical. Quad recruitment is minor at this point.
I guess. That's the whole spring mass model. I think it's accepted by most coaches nowadays, but I know Dr. Yessis seems to be against it or at least its application. I have been meaning to look more into sprinting, but I haven't gotten the chance yet.
Donald Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator