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Old 12-18-2009, 01:47 PM   #21
Brian DeGennaro
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Exactly my point. I've spoken to some lifters, some coaches, they could never DREAM of having their lifters do the kind of workload others do. Goes to show you how high some people are aiming too.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:49 PM   #22
Arien Malec
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I say, in time, the US will become competitive in OL lifting. It will take some time, but it will happen as crossfit gyms and strength coaches in high schools and colleges re-introduce OL to main stream athletes. Simply give it time.
I think CF helps awareness of Oly lifting (but awareness is much broader) but won't materially help competitiveness. Hassle Free Barbell is the right model - if you've read the last three articles in Milo, it's impressive stuff. Get oly lifting integrated into the sports programs at a high school level, require competition, co-opt, don't compete with the football program, and change high school kids' lives.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:49 PM   #23
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Exactly my point. I've spoken to some lifters, some coaches, they could never DREAM of having their lifters do the kind of workload others do. Goes to show you how high some people are aiming too.
I'm sure they would love that, it would skyrocket our nation in Oly Lifting success for sure. But no, all the sponsorship dollars are reserved for "other sports"...
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:00 PM   #24
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But also, Alex, Shane's 1008# wasn't ass to grass like you need when you do an Oly Lift. Gear, low bar, going to parallel and not below... those are all factors that play into the fact that maybe he does need to get stronger, especially in the hole.
What you just said is my point exactly. Louie says he'd make oly lifters stronger with a parallel box squat, I've heard Rippetoe talk about how oly lifters would be better served getting stronger doing parallel low bar back squats as opposed to A2G high bars. But if strength is indeed the problem, their solution (parallel low bar back squats) wouldn't solve it, since a guy with a very big low bar back squat wasn't strong enough. If strength is the problem (it isn't, drugs and the NFL are), low bar back squatting won't solve it, front squatting is more likely to.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:31 PM   #25
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I think the powerlifters failed to look outside of the US with making our lifters better. Yes, doing box/low bar squats MAY make that lifter the best US lifter...but they would still place only 12th...20th...27th...bomb out at the Olympics.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:52 PM   #26
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What you just said is my point exactly. Louie says he'd make oly lifters stronger with a parallel box squat, I've heard Rippetoe talk about how oly lifters would be better served getting stronger doing parallel low bar back squats as opposed to A2G high bars. But if strength is indeed the problem, their solution (parallel low bar back squats) wouldn't solve it, since a guy with a very big low bar back squat wasn't strong enough. If strength is the problem (it isn't, drugs and the NFL are), low bar back squatting won't solve it, front squatting is more likely to.
exactly, because coming off a box when at parallel is completely different when a 400# bar is crushing you down into a front squat position so deep your ballbag is on your heels.
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:57 PM   #27
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The other thing people forget is that squats down the way they were originally done and are done today by lifters, carries over to the lifts and the FS. As Louie states himself, box squats and wide squats make your deadlift bigger...but weightlifters don't give a damn about their deadlift.

I think I remember Glenn referencing Kyle Gulledge and Donnie Shankle in this. Here is the exact quote from the CF message boards:

"Donny Shankle and Kyle Gulledge are two of the strongest athletes I ever had the priveledge to coach or call friends. They are also two of the most "imbalanced" individuals I ever coached when it came to relative quad strength and hamstring/posterior chain strength. Here is how they differed.

First, when you look at them, the one thing you immedietly notice about Donny is that he had huge quads. I mean it was visibly evident that the guy had huge legs that were mostly quadricep, small hips, thin waist, etc. You could tell he was Quad dominant by looking at him.

Kyle, even though he squatted 964lbs in powerlifting competition and over 700lbs "raw" did not have excessively big legs, did not look overly impressive in shorts. He did have the adductor mass, and upper hamstring and glute development that is readily apparant if you have a singlet on, but looking at his quads around the knee, it was nothing special.

Here are some performance differences. Keep in mind Donny usually weighted around 220lbs to 230lbs, Kyle was more like 260lbs.

Donny could front squat 500+ pounds for reps, if he missed, he usually sunk back into the hole and dumped from the bottom. Hes back squat was MAYBEE 600lbs at the time period I am talking about... the time period when they were training together and directly comparable.

Kyle could not front squat 500lbs, and when he missed during the attempt, he missed because in trying to get up, he had kicked his hips so bar back and leaned so far over that the bar dropped off his chest. At this time, he could squat "raw" or belt only, over 700lbs, and had done 964lbs in a powerlifting competition.

Kyles best clean was 418lbs. Donnys at this time was 440lbs. Donny had never, at this time, been able to deadlift much over 500lbs. (I think at a later date he did 600lbs). Kyle was the first teenager in history to go over 800 in the deadlift, doing 830 as a 19 year old. He was able to do 750lbs while concentrating on the OL lifts, and doing no steady deadlift training.

When you watched Kyle pull, he started with the hips fairly high, and generated a lot of speed off the ground... He was using his posterior chain to lift the bar... with not so much on the second pull. When you watch Donny pull, his hips start quite low, the bar comes off the ground slowly, and the second pull is where he gets most of his pull from. You can tell by watching him lift the bar that his is lifting it in such a way as to use his quads all he can."

Nail in coffin? I think so.
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:00 PM   #28
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There are only 2 political discussion more retarded than OL vs. PL.

1) discussions about where the bar goes on your back and
2)discussions about where to put your feet.

put the bar where you want, put your feet where they go and squat more.
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:10 PM   #29
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There are only 2 political discussion more retarded than OL vs. PL.

1) discussions about where the bar goes on your back and
2)discussions about where to put your feet.

put the bar where you want, put your feet where they go and squat more.
Dave, that is all great if you are just a guy who is lifting for general purposes, but if you are competing in a sport like PL or OL, you kinda have to figure out which one is best to use for your needs.

And let me clarify, that just because a guy does the occasional C&J does NOT make him an Oly Lifter, it means he does it occasionally, so when I see that debate by a guy who is cleaning and jerking 150# and calling himself an oly lifter, I almost shit myself and want to yell "JUST SQUAT MORE!!!!!!!"
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:13 PM   #30
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Brian, a quick fix (and maybe something for all CrossFitters and people who Oly lift on occasion and not as a sport) is to get a big squat using any method you desire and do plenty of proper, deep front squats as well. That means squatting twice a week at least. Which I advocate for my clients and in my programming anyway.
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