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Old 12-30-2009, 03:11 PM   #31
Mike Prevost
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Default VO2 Max

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
Correct.



Really? The 5000 meters is 95% of VO2Max and the 3000 meters is right about 100% of VO2Max.
So you must mean every event above 5k?
You will have to forgive me Shane. I am a former Ironman type triathlete, so my bias is for longer stuff. I did not know you could contest something so short as 3K ; ).

However, even at 95% VO2 max, the performance limiter is still metabolic adaptations inside of the muscles and not cardiovascular.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:13 PM   #32
Mike Prevost
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Default Vo2 Max

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Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
I don't get what you're saying, Mike. I mean, I don't get how you're trying to argue against what Joel over at www.8weeksout.com was saying. How does what you're saying relate to the central vs. peripheral adaptation contributions for endurance events?
I don't have any idea what Joel said so I cannot answer your question. I am not even sure what you are asking.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:24 PM   #33
Mike Prevost
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Default Vo2 Max

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Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
I don't get what you're saying, Mike. I mean, I don't get how you're trying to argue against what Joel over at www.8weeksout.com was saying. How does what you're saying relate to the central vs. peripheral adaptation contributions for endurance events?
OK...I think I get it now. Is this what Joel said?
.................................................. .....
There has been a debate for years in exercise physiology about whether the limiting factor in aerobic performance comes from the cardiovascular supply side or oxygen utilization within the muscles themselves. There are arguments for both sides within the literature and I don't think there is really a clear answer yet but regardless, performance depends on both supply and utilization as well as contractile properties of the muscles, technique and skill, etc. It's probably a bit simplistic to say there is any one piece of the physiological puzzle that is single most important. When it comes to performance, it's all important.
.................................................. .......................

If he is talking about VO2 max, he is dead wrong. There is only really one guy arguing that the cardiovascular system is not the limiter for VO2 max. His name is Dr. Tim Noakes. There are not "arguments for both sides" that are credible. The preponderance of the research data is clear and has been for 20 years. The limiter for VO2 max is the ability to deliver oxygen rich blood to the muscles. Anybody who believes otherwise is either ignorant of the research literature on the subject, or their name is Dr. Tim Noakes. I am not necessarily bashing Dr. Noakes. He is a very smart man who has done a ton of great work on fluid balance and exercise, but on this issue he is wrong.

All of this pertains to VO2 max, an exercise intensity that elicits the max utilization of oxygen. At intensities below this level, performance is determined by metabolic capacity of the recruited muscles, not oxygen rich blood delivery.....even for something like a 3K, but even more so as the distances get longer. If what Joel meant by "aerobic performance" was not VO2 max, then I would say that he is wrong anyway, because we know what causes fatigue and what determines performance at intensities at, above and below VO2 max. It is not a mystery.

Doesn't matter. It is all physiology mumbo jumbo for the most part. Just train right and all will be good.
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Old 12-31-2009, 04:35 PM   #34
Donald Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Prevost View Post
OK...I think I get it now. Is this what Joel said?
.................................................. .....
There has been a debate for years in exercise physiology about whether the limiting factor in aerobic performance comes from the cardiovascular supply side or oxygen utilization within the muscles themselves. There are arguments for both sides within the literature and I don't think there is really a clear answer yet but regardless, performance depends on both supply and utilization as well as contractile properties of the muscles, technique and skill, etc. It's probably a bit simplistic to say there is any one piece of the physiological puzzle that is single most important. When it comes to performance, it's all important.
.................................................. .......................

If he is talking about VO2 max, he is dead wrong. There is only really one guy arguing that the cardiovascular system is not the limiter for VO2 max. His name is Dr. Tim Noakes. There are not "arguments for both sides" that are credible. The preponderance of the research data is clear and has been for 20 years. The limiter for VO2 max is the ability to deliver oxygen rich blood to the muscles. Anybody who believes otherwise is either ignorant of the research literature on the subject, or their name is Dr. Tim Noakes. I am not necessarily bashing Dr. Noakes. He is a very smart man who has done a ton of great work on fluid balance and exercise, but on this issue he is wrong.

All of this pertains to VO2 max, an exercise intensity that elicits the max utilization of oxygen. At intensities below this level, performance is determined by metabolic capacity of the recruited muscles, not oxygen rich blood delivery.....even for something like a 3K, but even more so as the distances get longer. If what Joel meant by "aerobic performance" was not VO2 max, then I would say that he is wrong anyway, because we know what causes fatigue and what determines performance at intensities at, above and below VO2 max. It is not a mystery.

Doesn't matter. It is all physiology mumbo jumbo for the most part. Just train right and all will be good.
I disagree with you, but you're the one with the Ph.D, so until I learn more, I will not argue any further.
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:14 PM   #35
Mike Prevost
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Default VO2 mAX

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Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
I disagree with you, but you're the one with the Ph.D, so until I learn more, I will not argue any further.
No worries Donald. It is not that I am particularly smart in that area. It is more that this is a fundamental concept of exercise physiology that any undergraduate student will know. It is not a hotly debated topic because the issues are largely well known through more than 30 years of research. What we know about it is pretty clear. What I presented is pretty basic and not at all controversial. Noakes is a bit of a lone wolf on this one. His book "The Lore of Running" was pretty popular and spread his alternative view of VO2 max to lots of lay persons and runners. His view is popular not because it is supported by the research or by even a small percentage of exercise physiologists; it is popular because he sold a lot of books. Oh well. He makes a convincing argument, but he is wrong.
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