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Old 03-09-2010, 09:35 AM   #21
Pat McElhone
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James,

Please add the following to the list of things I we have established:

We should strive to do a few things very well, not a lot of things mediocre (this is not an original thought) .

Thanks,

Pat
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:55 AM   #22
James Evans
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Pat, I do hope you realise that I'm pulling your chain. Mostly.

You mentioned the DB swing but seemed to imply that a similar action with a KB was a misuse of that particular tool. I found that interesting.

So we should just narrow our sonditioning options to sprints and burpees? I'll shoot Ross Enamait an email to that effect.

And please, don't make the assumption that I am nothing but the awesome at swinging a kettlebell above my head.
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Old 03-09-2010, 10:02 AM   #23
James Evans
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KETTLEBELLS - Dividing communities across the internetz since Pavel got his green card
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:24 PM   #24
Pat McElhone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Evans View Post
Pat, I do hope you realise that I'm pulling your chain. Mostly.

You mentioned the DB swing but seemed to imply that a similar action with a KB was a misuse of that particular tool. I found that interesting.

So we should just narrow our sonditioning options to sprints and burpees? I'll shoot Ross Enamait an email to that effect.

And please, don't make the assumption that I am nothing but the awesome at swinging a kettlebell above my head.
James,

I know you are mostly pulling my chain, no worries.

Let me clarify my point. Contrary opinions are valued. A DB swing is a decent exercise. A KB swing is a better exercise. Using the arm to pull a DB/KB Swing overhead is a good exercise. Allowing the bell to swing however high it will using only a hip snap is a better exercise.

I do not know what Ross Enamait has to do with this. If you want, shoot him an e-mail to get his opinion on this....that exercises done chosen to be used in conditioning circuits primary usefulness is in developing muscular endurance in that particular muscle group first, next depending on the exercises in the complete circuit global (aka cardio-respiratory) endurance may or may not be developed.

Said plainly using CF WODs as an example, I do not think going "Grace" as Rx'd has a training effect that is significantly different then doing 50 Burpees, "Fran" or just sprinting 800M all out. The training effect is nothing more then to place the body in a global oxygen debt for 2-3min. Again, if you think "Grace" offers other benefits, I would love to hear your opinion on what those benefits are.

Finally, I will assume nothing. Ross Enamait is no more (or less) an authority of training then Greg Everett, James Fitzgerald, Greg Glassman, Mark Twight, Dan John, Bruce Lee, John Jesse, or my favorite strength and conditioning coach Mike Gattone. None of these guys have the definitive right way. They all have a way that has worked for them and their athletes. Their way may or may not work for you and me.

Cheers,

Pat
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:00 AM   #25
James Evans
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My sips of the Koolaid have been furtive, brief and irregular. I'm not even certain what Grace is (30 snatches for time?). Not everyone on this board is a CF rebel.

You spent some time at the chalkboard, it helped your football but now you've decided to focus on other things. Good for you. But don't dismiss throwing light stuff around because it doesn't suit your goals. And the 'we should strive to do a few things very well, not a lot of things mediocre' line is somewhat patronising. How many months of CF did it take for you to come to that opinion? Might have saved yourself some time if you'd just defaulted to sprints and burpees.

I totally accept the reasoning behind the purely hip driven KB swing but I think you can gain appreciable benefits out of the swing to above head and it doesn't just have to have conditioning applications.

I believe many people favour the KB swing over the DB swing because of the comfort of grip. And many people find the overhead swing awkward or uncomfortable full stop.

Finally I believe that many people will dismiss an exercise by association with CF. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am interested whether people's preference was:

a) that's what felt good;
b) they read about it or were taught that way;
c) CrossFit does it so it must be bad.

As I said, curiosity on my part.

Now I've shown extreme discourtesy to Mike who posted an innocent question about KBs by crashing it with an inane argument so I think we should shake hands and bow out.
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Old 03-10-2010, 08:32 AM   #26
Pat McElhone
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James,

Cheers, for me this was a fruitful discussion. In no way am I trying to get in a pi$$ing contest with anyone. I agree with everything you said last 100%.

Pat
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Old 03-10-2010, 08:57 AM   #27
James Evans
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Pat,

s'all cool with me.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:19 PM   #28
Ganine Vanalst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Kerce View Post
if you're not training for or participating in competition, is there any reason to buy competition KBs? i'm just trying to get into kb training and i want to buy quality equipment, but what should a newb be looking for when buying KBs? does it matter, or should i just pick up what i can find and give it a whirl? thanks to any that can provide some advice.
Mike:

Perhaps someone can chime in on any quality issues with these, but I recently purchased some cap barbell kettlebells from Walmart.com that I am happy with. Obviously not competition bells, but the price was really good and you can have them shipped to a local Walmart store to save on shipping. Since shipping can amount to much of the cost of the bell, you can save a lot of $$$.

I also purchased Steve Cotter's Encyclopedia of Kettlebell Lifting and have been finding it a good source of info.
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Old 03-11-2010, 08:27 PM   #29
Derek Weaver
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Steve's stuff is largely legit. No experience with the Cap KB's.

For intro KB stuff I'd go with Enter the Kettlebel!. He's into some odd stuff with the variations on the swing that have come about in the last couple years.

Not sure where he's at with some of that.

I worked with a IKFF, AKC and (I think) former RKC guy to help refine some of the movements and he basically had me doing Hardstyle movements, but with a few twists to help increase the potential for long sets. Helped with the breathing etc.
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:58 PM   #30
Grissim Connery
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maybe this discussion is done, but here's my 2 cents on the Russian vs. American swing.

whenever i did american swings, i would feel my shoulders rubbing in very bad ways while overhead. in general, if you have both hands on a KB, then the grip is going to be very close. combining that with the effort needed to throw the KB back down from the max height, this would aggravate my shoulders greatly. because the grip is so close, my shoulder would squeeze against my face when the bell went overhead. my shoulders would naturally get pushed by my jaw into bad positions.

when i perform russian swings, i feel that my shoulders are doing no work. when doing snatches, i feel none of this either (except for when the catch finishes obviously). on the other hand when doing the american swing, i have to use my shoulders more just to stop them from hurting.

i guess the last issue that arises is whether you could just do your american swings with 1 arm or with 2 kb/dbs. once you take it to the single arm domain, i feel that the snatch would just feel more natural to begin with.

from an argument of power output, there's other ways to increase it without resorting to american swings.
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