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Old 05-08-2010, 11:58 AM   #11
Derek Weaver
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What Chris said. Power moves need to come first. That means the technical lifts.

Don't try and reinvent the wheel. Either work yourself into the ground ala the Boz post, or do something like th Catalyst workout or something else proven.

And yes, backsquats will blow up your back just as easily as deadlifts will.

Again though, what is the problem with your back health that you think squats and high skill, technical lifts are going to be fine, but a moderate to heavy pull won't be?
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Old 05-10-2010, 10:55 AM   #12
Robert Callahan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Shaughnessy View Post
I actually already do reverse hyperextensions, but considered them more of a lower back excercise and am looking for a pulling exercise. I wonder if there is anything other then pull ups or row variations? What else could there be...

I've actually come up with a routine that looks like it might be fun and get my strong, so rather then make a new thread, I'll post it here and ask for a critique or thoughs on how it could be better organized. Thanks.

Monday

Squat 3x5
Press/Bench 3x5
Power Clean 5x3
Power Snatches 5x3
Reverse Hyperextension 3x10
Weighted Plank 2x1:00

Wednesday

Squat 3x5
Bench/Press 3x5
Power snatch 5x3
Power Clean 5x3
Weighted pull up 3x5

Friday

Squat 3x5
Press/Bench 3x5
Power snatch 5x3
Power Clean 5x3
Reverse Hyperextensions 3x10
Weighted plank 2x1:00

I would be increasing the lifts in a linear manner. Is that feasible working the olympic lifts 3 times a week?
Two things.

First as has been said already, Squatting heavy and cleaning/snatching are just as likely to mess with your back, if not more so, than deadlifts.

Second your "program" is way to much. You expect to be able to squat heavy, press/bench heavy, snatch and clean heavy all for sets across?? Your workouts will take 3+ hours and you will over train yourself in short order.


Lets simplify this with 2 questions.

1) what is wrong with your back?
2) what are your athletic goals? Size + strength? Olympic lift proficiency? If you had to pick just one fitness/athletic related goal what would it be?


Based on your answers to these two questions we will be able to provide vastly improved advice
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:03 AM   #13
William Zelcer
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Can't speak for Kevin but i have a similar issue. Dead lifting aggravates my SI joint, while squatting does not.
Even when i had trouble walking, had to drag my right foot, i could still squat quite a bit without any pain.
i would like a substitute, but is there one ???
maybe i could get away with rather light ones (= to body weight) without it starting up again ????
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:12 AM   #14
Garrett Smith
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Russian KB swings as an alternative to DL.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:43 AM   #15
William Zelcer
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Garrett,
would you do a lot of reps * light weight (i.e 24 k) or few reps * heavy weight (??)
thanks
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:43 AM   #16
Dave Van Skike
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Originally Posted by William Zelcer View Post
Can't speak for Kevin but i have a similar issue. Dead lifting aggravates my SI joint, while squatting does not.
Even when i had trouble walking, had to drag my right foot, i could still squat quite a bit without any pain.
i would like a substitute, but is there one ???
maybe i could get away with rather light ones (= to body weight) without it starting up again ????
first, fix what is broken.
deadlifts are not broken.
something is funky. you might conclude after dilligent work at fixing your SI joint that the risk to reward is not there for deadlifting...but I'd take a run at fixing the dysfunction first.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:48 PM   #17
Grissim Connery
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like garrett said, the only thing i would replace DL w/ is heavy kb swings.

but still i wouldn't use the word replace. i would do them instead, but they are very different. i use swings if my gluts are lagging and not activating right.

yeah like other people said, what's the back issue? i can deadlift very often and feel fine. if i backsquat twice in one week then my spine feels shitty immediately.
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:27 PM   #18
Kevin Shaughnessy
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I dont have a diagnosed spinal problem, I just tweak my back easily, especially when performing deadlifts and I dont want to develop a long-term problem. What prompted the question was I had hurt my back squatting and deadlifting aggravated the problem in a much more painfull way then squatting so I got nervous. I've decided to reset, let my back heal and continue trying with the deadlifts.

As for my goals, I would like to be able to squat, deadlift, press, bench, clean, and snatch decently while maintaining a good amount of conditioning while not being fat.
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Old 05-12-2010, 04:06 PM   #19
Jason Barrow
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Long time reader/lurker, super-infrequent poster! Sure some of the others will chime in again but thought I'd offer of my 2 cents...

Backing off for a while to let the back issue rest up sounds like a good idea. However, if you say you tweak your back "easily" when deadlifting, sound perhaps like there's an issue here? Maybe nothing big, could just be tightness, musclar imbalance, bad patterning...? Sure somebody else will have something to say in that regard.

With reference to your goals, quite a lot going on but if that's what you're shooting for, cool. I'd probably approach it one of 2 ways....
  1. Get strong in the so called slow lifts first, before using using that strength in becoming better at the oly stuff. Simplifies your training days/week, less time spent in the gym, room to maybe add some conditioning along side the lifting...
  2. Work everything at the same time but spread you training out more than in the suggested template. Daily/weekly volume would be less, you'd hit each lift less frequently and progress in each would no doubt be slower but you'd avoid over doing it and be able to enjoy doing a little bit off everything you want....
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:48 PM   #20
Kevin Shaughnessy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Barrow View Post
Long time reader/lurker, super-infrequent poster! Sure some of the others will chime in again but thought I'd offer of my 2 cents...

Backing off for a while to let the back issue rest up sounds like a good idea. However, if you say you tweak your back "easily" when deadlifting, sound perhaps like there's an issue here? Maybe nothing big, could just be tightness, musclar imbalance, bad patterning...? Sure somebody else will have something to say in that regard.

With reference to your goals, quite a lot going on but if that's what you're shooting for, cool. I'd probably approach it one of 2 ways....
  1. Get strong in the so called slow lifts first, before using using that strength in becoming better at the oly stuff. Simplifies your training days/week, less time spent in the gym, room to maybe add some conditioning along side the lifting...
  2. Work everything at the same time but spread you training out more than in the suggested template. Daily/weekly volume would be less, you'd hit each lift less frequently and progress in each would no doubt be slower but you'd avoid over doing it and be able to enjoy doing a little bit off everything you want....
Thanks for the advice. Number 1 is actually the way I'm going to go. I'm doing SS first and then I'll implement snatches and prowler work into my routine.

As for why I tweak my back easily, I have theories. Basically I battered my lower back doing terrible form squats and deadlifts trying to do SS a couple years ago that I never properly rehabbing until recently. So I think my problem is weak joints.
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