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Old 08-22-2010, 03:44 PM   #31
Garrett Smith
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Originally Posted by Robb Wolf View Post
Steven- I respectfully disagree. I see people as highly proficient of dismantling themselves from excessive volume and intensity.

Chad-
Brother, you have had multiple forays into this OR/OT land and the effects are not just cumulative but similar to heat exhaustion, they come back hard and fast without planned avoidance. It can literally take MONTHS to get one;s shit squared away and that is to just get healthy, it does not then open the door to more 100% training! Just because you feel better it's not a sign you are back to "normal".
This is completely true, all of it.

Feeling "better" after beginning to address a situation like this only means that one is STARTING to rebuild the "savings account" that long-term excessive training had completely depleted. Basically, Chad was working out on the equivalent of credit cards and racking up a huge debt, which sometimes simple rest cannot repay all by itself.

Also, just like heat exhaustion, once that door has been opened, it is all too easy to slip back into a hairy situation. Sometimes it is as if one has broken a sort of "stress thermostat" that may never be the same again.

CF is like a strong pharmaceutical (I hesitate to call it "medicine" anymore). It has to be dosed intelligently, properly, and individually. There are given side effects that have to be managed early on, or they turn into short-term problems, and eventually into long-term problems.

Robb and I both know this because we've both been there. I'm thankful that I had some sense (and excessive stress in other places to a large extent) to realize early that the path I was going down was leading to a bad place...and I jumped off that train.
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Old 08-22-2010, 05:16 PM   #32
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I think your diet is an issue here. Not everyone can adapt to the workload with that diet. If Robb didn't recommend it, I'd recommend upping your complex carbs via "Hungry Like The Wolf Orthorexia, LLC" guidelines, i.e. sweet potatoes, yams, or whatever Loren Cordain say won't poison you.
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:00 PM   #33
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Shaf-
More carbs could certainly help. Pre-post WO. Things like training fasted and LC need to wait till the basic structure is rebuilt and as Garrett alluded, it may still be too much stress.
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:21 PM   #34
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I'd definitely consider dropping your fructose consumption - perhaps replacing with sweet potatoes. That's a lot of fruit!

I'd also like to add that I've seen the same thing as Garrett and Robb numerous times. CF is great if used carefully, but it's strong medicine and coupled with high stress can really dig a deep hole.
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Old 08-23-2010, 08:13 PM   #35
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More carbs and fat, definitely. The better the source, the better your recovery.

One cannot recover from excessive stress on low carb and IF...that I feel I know for sure now.
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:04 PM   #36
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Hey thanks guys, sorry I disappeared for a few days, I was building a log cabin in a remote location and didn't have any internet or 3G signal.

I can understand the analogy of heat exhaustion to overtraining. And I now get that "feeling" normal is not the same as being fully recovered.

After talking with Robb around the same time the tibia started to stress fracture, I seriously cut down the training volume, but I think it may have been too little too late. As well as I never fully recovered from overtraining in the first place, so even with reduced training volume, I was probably still causing enough damage to delay my recovery.

It also probably doesn't help that as I head into spring and summer, I become increasingly busy with work since I do roofing and construction, so even though it's not terribly demanding physical work, it is added work load which I should probably be more careful to adjust for.

I certainly won't argue with you guys on diet. I know from talking with Robb that shifting carbs to post workout and adding tubers is a wise decision. I guess I just stuck with my diet because it felt like it was working for me as far as hunger and body composition. I tend to stay lean, I've never had my BF calculated but I can't imagine I've ever been anything over 10% bf, and rounding my meals out with just protein, carb, and fat seems to control hunger for me pretty well, especially since I eat relatively frequently.

And Scotty, I appreciate the link. I believe Robb had a blog post once that linked to Mat Lalonde talking about the negatives of fructose. The thing, and sure you guys can probably clear this up, but I've seen articles on both sides. I've read people saying that fructose is preferable to any other sugar and that it digests slowly so it's ok to eat, and then I've read articles that say that fructose is downright dangerous and cause diseases. The thing is, I stay lean even if I eat fruit with every meal, so it's kind of hard for me to imagine that I'm going to develop diabetes or something from fructose. I'll try switching out the fruit for tubers just for experiment's sake, but is fruit really that much of a problem? I'm starting to feel like if I kept removing "bad" foods from my diet, I'd be down to nothing but beef, chicken, spinach, asparagus, and broccoli. I'm already trying to cut the nuts out and replace it with more olive oil. I've limited my egg consumption to 2 a day. Sometimes I just feel like just about everything is bad for you.

On a side note, I spent the weekend swinging an axe and carrying heavy, and I mean really heavy, logs short distances and lifting them into place. Thing is, I'm not tired or sore at all. In fact, I feel great. So, this got me thinking, is it just the intensity of the workouts that is so damaging? I've experienced this before doing solar panel installations where I spent 12-14 hours a day working for a few days in a row, and I wasn't tired or sore the whole time despite it being physically demanding work. Yet, if I hit a workout like Diane, Fran, or Grace (all between 2-4 minutes for me), I can be sore for days. It almost seems like you could put in long hours of low intensity but heavy work easier than you can do moderate weight at high intensity for short duration.
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:22 PM   #37
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It almost seems like you could put in long hours of low intensity but heavy work easier than you can do moderate weight at high intensity for short duration.
This is the way it is, especially when you are referring to "intensity" as a % of effort. Regardless of "scaling", CF workouts are supposed to be done at max intensity, which is why they can burn out anyone with nearly any scaling parameters (except maybe when done extra heavy and thus forcing enough rest to recover to do another rep).

Most everyone else refers to intensity as a % of their 1 rep maximum...because they know that max is not something they can train to every day, so they use percents.

CF says go to 100% every training day, 5-6 days/week. This is not sustainable in any endeavor, random or otherwise. Never has been, never will be. If we could be "perfect" and "our best" every day, I think the universe might implode.

Also, your work stress is too significant to ignore, it would have to be counted and figured into the whole equation.

Honestly, and maybe Robb will agree since you guys have obviously been talking on this for a while...I'm surprised you lasted as long as you did.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:16 AM   #38
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Ironically, HIT and Crossfit describe intensity the same way, as a subjective value of intensity of effort.

This was a major mistake for HIT, and it's a major mistake for Crossfit.
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Old 08-24-2010, 08:51 AM   #39
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This is not a coincidence. I think CrossFit is the Nautilus of our generation. Long, sciencey-sounding articles that are really just ad-copy, impressing people by utterly blasting "well-conditioned" athletes on their first workout, mindless adherents spouting the Gospel, barely-trained trainers putting people on a circuit with little regard for where people came from... The list goes on and on. Not that Glassman and Jones didn't have some great ideas, they're infinitely smarter than me in this arena. They're also pretty good businessmen, entrepeneurs, and marketers.
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Old 08-24-2010, 10:48 AM   #40
Jarod Barker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
This is the way it is, especially when you are referring to "intensity" as a % of effort. Regardless of "scaling", CF workouts are supposed to be done at max intensity, which is why they can burn out anyone with nearly any scaling parameters (except maybe when done extra heavy and thus forcing enough rest to recover to do another rep).

Most everyone else refers to intensity as a % of their 1 rep maximum...because they know that max is not something they can train to every day, so they use percents.

CF says go to 100% every training day, 5-6 days/week. This is not sustainable in any endeavor, random or otherwise. Never has been, never will be. If we could be "perfect" and "our best" every day, I think the universe might implode.

Also, your work stress is too significant to ignore, it would have to be counted and figured into the whole equation.

Honestly, and maybe Robb will agree since you guys have obviously been talking on this for a while...I'm surprised you lasted as long as you did.
Well, from what people have told me, I'm surprised I lasted as long as I did. My first year doing Crossfit, I followed the CF main page and then did the NavySEALs.com workout everyday. Before that, I spent about 6 months following the Gym Jones workouts that he listed on the calendar, and I did all of the workouts listed. Somedays this meant up to 4 workouts a day, not realizing the Twight was just listing all the workouts that various athletes did. The crazy thing of it is, I lasted about a solid year doing that on my own. Perhaps the intensity was lacking which may have allowed me to do for so long.

In any case, I should apologize to Robb for fucking up his advice. Every time I've spoken with Robb about overtraining, I've drastically reduced my training volume, tweaked my diet, and tried to make alterations to match Robb's recommendations, but I think perhaps I never scaled back quite enough. You can clearly see in my training logs over the past years, I have reduced training volume drastically, but I think as I train less volume, I've simply compensated by increasing intensity. So, instead of doing 3 workouts a day at 75%, I ended up doing 1 workout a day at 100% intensity. And as I'm starting realize the intensity may be the factor that is mucking everything up.

For example, I didn't start having problems until I started going to a CF affiliate. Once there, I was quickly overtrained and then injured. My first CF WOD at an affiliate was a Painstorm, and just about every workout following that was equally long and heavy. Everything was performed as Rx'd with no scaling, and the intensity was really pushed. I think before this, doing workouts on my own, my intensity was just to the point where I kept moving the whole time. Once I went to an affiliate, everything was rushed. While I can say that that intensity improved my fitness short term, I do believe that it led to my initial overtraining and injuries.

In any case, I've been seriously trying to plan my return to training in light of recent issues. Would it be unwise to try to focus on single modalities per workout? For instance, Monday work on front levers and planches, Tuesday have a moderate run (maybe about a 5K), and then do some weight training on Wednesday (cleans, deadlifts, squats, etc.)? I don't mean to be overly simplistic, but it seems like if the intensity of multi-modality workouts like CF seems to be the issue in overtraining, why not train modalities individually with less intensity? Am I missing the point?
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