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Old 08-27-2010, 11:22 AM   #51
Garrett Smith
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That is a great case study to learn from.

Tamoxifen is an estrogen receptor antagonist, which is different than an aromatase inhibitor.
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In any case, I guess the real question I'm asking is, is hypogonadism as a result of overtraining/recurrent injury a reversible condition or are you permanently damaged from the stress on your body?
I believe there is a degree of both.
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Old 08-27-2010, 12:40 PM   #52
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Hahaha, thanks Ben, I suppose stressing about whether or not stress induced hypogonadism is permanent is rather counterproductive.

Dr. G, I guess I don't really understand the difference so much then, but I thought that an estrogen blocker reduced the amount of estrogen in your body, so I figured that inhibiting the aromatization of testosterone into estrogen would reduce the amount of estrogen in your body, hence, same end result. Perhaps I am oversimplifying this though.
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Old 08-27-2010, 03:18 PM   #53
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Differences Between the Antiestrogens, Anti-aromatases versus Estrogen Antagonists
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Anti-estrogens are drugs which act to reduce estrogenic activity in the body. This can be done either by reducing the amount of estrogen, or by reducing the activity of whatever estrogen is present.

Competitive aromatase inhibitors, such as Cytadren, Arimidex, and probably Proviron, bind to the same binding site on the aromatase enzyme that testosterone does. By doing this, they allow less testosterone to bind to aromatase. So, less testosterone is converted to estradiol (estrogen).

The other general approach is estrogen receptor antagonism. If a molecule binds strongly to a hormone receptor, but does not activate that receptor and makes it unresponsive to the normal hormone, then it is a receptor antagonist. Clomid (clomiphene) and Nolvadex (tamoxifen) follow this approach. These drugs are very similar structurally. They are both what are called triphenylethylenes, and are not steroids. The differences are relatively minor, but seem to affect an important characteristic of these compounds: drug metabolism.
Also, just because someone is "low" in testosterone does not mean that their estrogen is "high". If test production is low, then there wouldn't necessarily be more estrogen, if only mostly due to the fact that there isn't as much test to convert to estrogen.
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Old 08-28-2010, 07:34 AM   #54
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In any case, Jae and Garrett, I know I need a coach, but I swear to you, I have contacted people and looked all over the place for a good coach, I cannot find one in Pittsburgh, PA. This is why I'm seriously considering relocating to Chico if my girlfriend gets into grad school there. I've tried remote coaching as well, but I think I need a coach who can actually observe me and tell me when I'm going too hard. I really am a coachable athlete, I do exactly as I'm told, but that can also be dangerous because I've had bad coaches who over programmed with too much weight too often, and I just kept trying to perform till I got injured.
Chad -

Where do you live in Pittsburgh?


I know of a few places that have been recommend to me before that may be worthwhile for you to look at. I workout in the robinson area if you're also just looking for someone to tell you to scale back when you need to.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:35 AM   #55
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Differences Between the Antiestrogens, Anti-aromatases versus Estrogen Antagonists

Also, just because someone is "low" in testosterone does not mean that their estrogen is "high". If test production is low, then there wouldn't necessarily be more estrogen, if only mostly due to the fact that there isn't as much test to convert to estrogen.
Makes sense to me, I don't know how accurate biosig is, but I definitely store most of my body fat in my low back and my hamstrings which I thought was a marker of elevated estrogen levels. But I see what you mean, if T output is low to begin with, there isn't much available to be converted to estrogen anyways.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:41 AM   #56
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Chad -

Where do you live in Pittsburgh?


I know of a few places that have been recommend to me before that may be worthwhile for you to look at. I workout in the robinson area if you're also just looking for someone to tell you to scale back when you need to.
I live near Cranberry Twp. Economy Borough to be exact, but nobody knows where that is. I know there's a great weightlifting gym in Bridgeville, but I've tried all the CF affiliates out here. They aren't bad, just not the level I'm looking for. What gym do you train at in Robinson? I know there's Finish First and Pittsburgh Fight Club, but I'm sure there are more. I've been trying to get an invite to The Lab though. I know a few of the guys there and I've trained with them, but they're very private and rarely invite new members since it's not a public gym. I think they have a grand total of 5 members right now, I'm not sure how much it costs either, but I think they're all splitting the mortgage.
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Old 08-28-2010, 02:13 PM   #57
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I live near Cranberry Twp. Economy Borough to be exact, but nobody knows where that is. I know there's a great weightlifting gym in Bridgeville, but I've tried all the CF affiliates out here. They aren't bad, just not the level I'm looking for. What gym do you train at in Robinson? I know there's Finish First and Pittsburgh Fight Club, but I'm sure there are more. I've been trying to get an invite to The Lab though. I know a few of the guys there and I've trained with them, but they're very private and rarely invite new members since it's not a public gym. I think they have a grand total of 5 members right now, I'm not sure how much it costs either, but I think they're all splitting the mortgage.
I generally work out at the Y in Robinson, unless I'm around my parents house so then I may goto the one in Wexford. They're nothing special, but they let me do what I need to do and not usually that crowded when I go. I do agree there aren't many gyms around that are worth it which I why I've stuck to the YMCA,

I've been telling Jamie Skibicki (guessing you know him if you ever went on the CF boards) I'd go down the Pittsburgh Barbell in Bridgeville on Saturdays when he goes down, I'm guessing that's the place you're referring to. If I was a little close I'd probably go there more but it's a bit out of the way.

If I remember right Economy is over near Baden, I don't know that area that well so I'm not sure of anything to closer to you.

Cranberry doesn't have anything decent out there?
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Old 08-28-2010, 04:13 PM   #58
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Makes sense to me, I don't know how accurate biosig is, but I definitely store most of my body fat in my low back and my hamstrings which I thought was a marker of elevated estrogen levels. But I see what you mean, if T output is low to begin with, there isn't much available to be converted to estrogen anyways.
One absolutely could have high estrogen and low test at the same time. I simply wanted to add that there is not a strict inverse relationship between the two hormones.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:04 PM   #59
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One absolutely could have high estrogen and low test at the same time. I simply wanted to add that there is not a strict inverse relationship between the two hormones.
Roger that, I understand they aren't necessarily indirectly proportionate. I don't know how much faith I put in biosig though because if my cortisol is high, why is most of my fat in my back and hamstrings? I'm not convinced that fat storage is an accurate indicator of hormonal imbalances.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:18 PM   #60
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I generally work out at the Y in Robinson, unless I'm around my parents house so then I may goto the one in Wexford. They're nothing special, but they let me do what I need to do and not usually that crowded when I go. I do agree there aren't many gyms around that are worth it which I why I've stuck to the YMCA,

I've been telling Jamie Skibicki (guessing you know him if you ever went on the CF boards) I'd go down the Pittsburgh Barbell in Bridgeville on Saturdays when he goes down, I'm guessing that's the place you're referring to. If I was a little close I'd probably go there more but it's a bit out of the way.

If I remember right Economy is over near Baden, I don't know that area that well so I'm not sure of anything to closer to you.

Cranberry doesn't have anything decent out there?
I've heard Jamie's name tossed around a bit but I've never met him. The Pittsburgh Barbell Club in Bridgeville is absolutely incredible. Rege Becker is a phenomenal coach, probably one of the best kept secrets in Western PA. Becker has a great eye for movement, and he's very good at addressing lifters' weak points. He's like the Coach B of the East Coast, only no one's heard of him.

I keep getting kicked out of the Y in Cranberry. I got kicked out for wearing fivefingers the first time (they said they would damage the floor), then I got kicked out for wearing weightlifting shoes (again said they would damage the floor), then I got kicked out for deadlifting (not allowed to take the bar out of the squat rack), and then I got kicked out for squatting without a spotter (mind you, I'm in a squat rack). They're really touchy there.... I've never even attempted to do a CF WOD there.

Finish First in Robinson is absolutely ridiculous. Go in sometime just for a laugh. When I went in, he told me it was $375 a month, and you have to follow one of his programs. What's funniest though is his list of athletes. They're all beauty pageant competitors.

Pittsburgh Fight Club in Robinson used to be really bad. Just meatheads everywhere doing dumb shit to impress each other. Lots of screaming, slamming things, just trying to attract attention. I've heard it has gotten better lately though, and I've heard it's not too bad, but I can't get past my initial impression.

Economy and Baden are like wasteland. There's just nothing out here except a few little bodybuilding specific gyms with no free weights, just machines.

The only good place in/near Cranberry is MAC Fitness, but I can't find a coach there. It's all boxing, which the boxing coaches are really good at boxing, and the jits guy I was working with is awesome as well, but no S&C coaches.

I've tried contacting every single POSE coach listed for the area, and not one has ever returned my calls or emails. I think I just need to relocate. It's the next logical step. I think I need to get serious, relocate, and move forward.
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