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Old 05-24-2011, 11:08 AM   #1341
raj rihal
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that sounds good. 5/3/1 is great btw. especially when recovering from an injury.
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Old 05-24-2011, 03:13 PM   #1342
Russell Crosswy
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson View Post
Thanks man!
I'm thinking about putting it on a blog to make it easier, and which days 5/3/1 goes on.
Is this a setup to weightlift and work on running conditioning at the same time?

I've wondered what the best way is to combine the two. For me personally, I would like to get faster in the 400m and get stronger. From what I know, and I might be completely wrong, you would want to work on strength more and then work up the conditioning over time depending on when the competition is and planning for the season. Understand that the 5km and 400m are different events and training would look very different as well.

Wouldn't it also depend where you are in training age and other factors as well?
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:25 PM   #1343
Andrew Wilson
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Originally Posted by Russell Crosswy View Post
Is this a setup to weightlift and work on running conditioning at the same time?
I just put them on speed days, squat deadlift after a day like 12x 70m or 8x 150m. 8 & 10 miler days sneak in presses
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Old 05-25-2011, 02:58 AM   #1344
Derek Weaver
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson View Post
Thanks man!
I'm thinking about putting it on a blog to make it easier, and which days 5/3/1 goes on.
No problem. The resources you sent me gave more insight than just about any other resource other than Joel Jamieson's explanations on energy systems. Tie between the two.

Just in case one of the CF (we know who that would be) apologists comes in here, Andrew's information didn't get me hurt. I did by being stupid, and then by a somewhat random injury while recovering from the first injury. No puking, rhabdo, slap tears or any other idiot injury that only comes from idiot workouts.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:41 AM   #1345
Pat McElhone
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson View Post
I just put them on speed days, squat deadlift after a day like 12x 70m or 8x 150m. 8 & 10 miler days sneak in presses
Andrew,

I am very interested in this program. Have you written about anywhere else? What advice would you give to adding some speed work to olifting? I generally lift 2x a week, 1st day sn/c&j, 2nd day FS/BS. Would this work:

Day 1 Sn/C&J
Day 2 Speed 12x70m
Day 3 Off
Day 4 FS
Day 5 8x150m
Day Longer run- do you think I need to run? or do another activity that is an oxidative stress for 60min or so. I would be mountain biking or riding a fixed gear bike and running sometimes.

My long term goal is to be able to simultaneously snatch 100kg (I have done that), do 25 DH pull-ups (I have done that) and run a sub 6min mile (I have not done that).

Also, what is the link to your "notes" page? Thanks,
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Old 05-25-2011, 02:36 PM   #1346
Andrew Wilson
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an example would be [this is a week in the 800 bmc article with 5/3/1 added];

Day 1: behind neck press before 10mi run (~98% aerobic session, ~80% VO2max)
Day 2: 10x70m deadlift after (atp pc - speed session)
Day 3: 3 sets of 4x 200 +100 jog and 400 jog after the 4th 200 (atp pc + la w/ o2 drift session)
Day 4: bench press before 8 mile run (<94% aerobic session, >85% VO2max)
Day 5: 8x 100m squat after (atp pc - speed session)
Day 6: 2 sets of 2x 400 +100 walk (atp pc + la w/ o2 drift session)

with the 800, the event is 67% anaerobic, so 67% of the weekly sessions will be dedicated to developing the anaerobic ensys, the rest is fully dedicated to improving VO2 with aerobic runs, which are also used as recovery sessions from the anaerobic sessions.

so week cycle would look like:
aerobic session, anaerobic session (speed), anaerobic session (lactate threshold), repeat.
sn, cj, dl, sqt would go with speed session- this day is dedicated to force generation & fast twitches (aerobic dedicated to slow twit)

1500 event is 50%, 50% so week cycle would be aerobic, anaerobic (lactate threshold), repeat.


Dr Verk wrote a really good article on this with decathletes, they rx cycles like speed, speed strength, endurance, repeat

so everything as a purpose and quality to it, and the athlete is actually being designed and not a random bi-product of random exercise clustered together.
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:38 AM   #1347
Shane Skowron
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson View Post
with the 800, the event is 67% anaerobic, so 67% of the weekly sessions will be dedicated to developing the anaerobic ensys
Not so sure about that. The 800 is mostly aerobic. The exact ratio aerobic:anaerobic is disputed but every study I've seen on that demonstrates it's over 50% aerobic.

This link lists 10 studies on the 800, ranging anywhere from 52% aerobic to 81% aerobic. Nowhere near 33%.
http://www.coachr.org/energy_system_...tion_in_tr.htm
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:05 AM   #1348
Andrew Wilson
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Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
Not so sure about that. The 800 is mostly aerobic. The exact ratio aerobic:anaerobic is disputed but every study I've seen on that demonstrates it's over 50% aerobic.

This link lists 10 studies on the 800, ranging anywhere from 52% aerobic to 81% aerobic. Nowhere near 33%.
http://www.coachr.org/energy_system_...tion_in_tr.htm
haha I've read that page so many times, some of those tests are done on treadmills

Yeah its debatable:
Solving the 800m Puzzle
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank52.html
Quote:
AV Hill declared that the 800 metres was 67 percent anaerobic and 33 per cent aerobic. Aerobic running includes all types of running where the predominant amount of oxygen required is breathed in during the activity.
Why Did Coe's 800m Record Last So Long?
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank13.html
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How does one gain this four-second endurance? We have seen that one type of 800m runner with a fair 400m time can perform well at 1,500m. They could not do this if they did not regularly train at 1,500m speed. This rate of running is relevant to two-lap running because it is 50 per cent anaerobic, well on the way to the 67 per cent anaerobic running required in the 800m. It is also 110% VO2 max compared to 130 per cent needed in the two-lap event.
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A weekly training programme

As I've said, the 800 metres event is two-thirds anaerobic, one-third aerobic. So the training must reflect this. Here is an example of such an allocation:
Five Pace Theory
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank67.html
Quote:
b. The physiological indications of the event. Here, there are several choices: 1) Using A.V. Hill’s aerobic/anaerobic table. 2) Using Matthews’s and Fox’s energy pathway requirements. 3) Using empirical methods. Hill stated that the 1,500m event is half aerobic and half anaerobic. We have to understand what is meant by those terms. Also, we have to be clear in our minds that there are several predominantly aerobic speeds where the majority of the oxygen needed can be breathed in. For example, running at 3K speed, about 4secs per lap slower than in the 1,500m is 60 per cent aerobic. We must also understand that anaerobic running involves a wide range of speeds and includes: 200m (95 per cent), 800m (67 per cent) and 1,500m (50 per cent).

There are those who question Hill’s findings, stating that the aerobic requirements is grossly under-estimated. Until they receive a Nobel Prize, as Hill did for his findings, we must assume that he knew better!

Fox and Matthews sub-divided Hill’s two main categories (aerobic/anaerobic) and stated that the 800m event was 65 per cent LA-O2, 30 per cent ATP-PC and 5 per cent O2. These abbreviations simply mean lactic acid/oxygen (LA- O2), adenosine triphosphate and phosphocreatine and lactic acid (ATP-PC and LA) and O2 is oxygen usage (aerobic). All these energy pathways are duration-related: for example, if we sprint 100m, for the first 4secs, we use ATP; if we continue to 200m, we use ATP + PC; and if we plug away to 400m, we use ATP + muscle glycogen; if we stagger on for another 80secs, we are running anaerobically, building up lactic acid and relying on muscle glycogen to keep us going. We must eventually slow down after 2mins still relying on muscle glycogen, after 4mins we slow still further and keep going because we use more oxygen and start burning fatty acids as well as muscle glycogen.
Those AV Hill numbers are classic dinosaurs haha

All comes down to who's running the tests, someone with 3' runs a different 800 than someone that 2', and 1'45". Like these crossfitters for example, they run a 3', they run it full blast, with a max 60" 400, by they time they get to the 300-400 they hit lactate threshold, all that burning hits early being its a lower threshold compared to two lappers, they have to slow down, the pace they slow down to is equivalent to a 9'-8'/mile drift being they have a 45-50 vo2max, by the time they finish the 2nd 400 they've run a 3'. So the 1st lap was 60", 2nd lap was 120", in that case the ratio would 2/3 aerobic, 1/3 anaerobic, or even higher aerobic. In the case with someone like David Rudisha or Seb Coe with vo2 77-80, with a much much higher lactate threshold, tolerable 3-4 times higher than the 3' crossfitter, they can run the 400 in 49"-50", and not hit lactate threshold till around 537-600, by then they can drift off into a 3'50"/mile pace for the last 200 and still keep the 2nd lap at 52". In that case it'd be around 2/3 anaerobic. But if Horwill says 67% and 67% of the sessions should dedicated to anaerobic, I'm down with that and trust because he's built some monsters
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:16 PM   #1349
Matt Reilly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson View Post
All comes down to who's running the tests, someone with 3' runs a different 800 than someone that 2', and 1'45". Like these crossfitters for example, they run a 3', they run it full blast, with a max 60" 400, by they time they get to the 300-400 they hit lactate threshold, all that burning hits early being its a lower threshold compared to two lappers, they have to slow down, the pace they slow down to is equivalent to a 9'-8'/mile drift being they have a 45-50 vo2max, by the time they finish the 2nd 400 they've run a 3'. So the 1st lap was 60", 2nd lap was 120", in that case the ratio would 2/3 aerobic, 1/3 anaerobic, or even higher aerobic. In the case with someone like David Rudisha or Seb Coe with vo2 77-80, with a much much higher lactate threshold, tolerable 3-4 times higher than the 3' crossfitter, they can run the 400 in 49"-50", and not hit lactate threshold till around 537-600, by then they can drift off into a 3'50"/mile pace for the last 200 and still keep the 2nd lap at 52". In that case it'd be around 2/3 anaerobic. But if Horwill says 67% and 67% of the sessions should dedicated to anaerobic, I'm down with that and trust because he's built some monsters
VO2 max is improved via aerobic training, right? If so, then wouldn't someone like the crossfitter that you mentioned derive greater benefit from doing more than 33% of his training aerobically since it is his VO2 max that his holding him back?
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:59 PM   #1350
Andrew Wilson
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Yep exactly, that's why general preparation phase/ winter training is dedicated to mainly building an aerobic base, and specific preparation phase/ pre competition phase is dedicated to mainly enhancing anaerobic and event speed. like the conjugate sequence. horwill in one of those links above says to switch 67% aerobic, 33% anae for winter training
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