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Old 12-16-2010, 09:52 AM   #141
Steven Low
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The reason why you don't seen the top CF athletes getting slap lesions is because their shoulder mobility sucks. If your shoulder mobility sucks when you relax your shoulder muscles at the bottom of the pullup you have your muscles contracting against opening the shoulder all the way thus mitigating any forces on the biceps long head tendon. In addition, the muscles do help bar forces from the shoulder.

However, when you get people who are weak (e.g. women in general, or those with good shoulder mobility) they're the ones getting the primary forces distributed through the muscles into the other soft tissues such as the long head of the biceps. This is especially the case with learning the kipping pullups where there's going to be a lot of jerking down into the motion while learning it.

I would never ever ever ever recommending learning kipping before you at least have 3+ deadhang pullups. It's not just not a good idea putting trauma on the shoulder especially when it's easy to not do it right and jerking down into the movement which is much more dangerous than a smooth movement.

Jerking down from toes to bar can do the same thing for reference.

Yeah, maybe an article is in order we'll see...
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:15 AM   #142
Darla Powell
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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post

Jerking down from toes to bar can do the same thing for reference.

Yeah, maybe an article is in order we'll see...
Son of a...! I bet it was the Toes to Bar. It was my first and last time doing it and come to think of it, I did feel a strange twinge in my shoulder. It wasn't painful just weird and I shrugged it off.
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:41 AM   #143
Garrett Smith
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Most people do a kip (arching forward at the bottom to gain momentum for the return) on KTEs and toes-to-bar, even though they don't necessarily feel it.
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:46 AM   #144
Andrew Wilson
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Old 12-16-2010, 12:05 PM   #145
Ryne Clos
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Thanks for the profuse response. I should note that I can already do 5 deadhangs at a time and 13 total in about 5-6 minutes (3 sets). I also have a torn left labrum (have for 7 years) because of a football injury. I will skip the kipping pull-ups for a while and focus on deadhangs, jumping pull-ups, BW rows, and static holds at the top of the pull-up to improve my numbers on the deadhang. Thanks again.
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:28 PM   #146
Emily Mattes
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I can do multiple deadhangs but have yet to learn how to do one kipping. It's been a thorn in my side that I've been meaning to pull out, but given that my shoulder mobility is extremely good perhaps it's better if I remain ignorant.
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:56 PM   #147
Gant Grimes
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For those worried about doing kipping pullups for GPP, I was once able to do 50 kipping pullups in a row (at 200 pounds). I haven't done a single kipping pullup in over two years and haven't lost anything. You can live without them.
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:11 PM   #148
Jarod Barker
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Not to totally swing the conversation away from the kipping pullup, but just a thought I've been having the last few times I read this thread.

I know that CF main page programming is over-programmed with too much intensity, too often, with high reps of complex technique dependent movements, etc.

But, whatever happened to the old CF programming template?

The monostructural, weightlifitng, and gymnastics template. Where say for instance:

Day 1: Run 100m x 5 rounds
Day 2: a couplet of weightlifting and gymnastics so maybe Diane, Fran, etc.
Day 3: an AMRAP wod, so maybe something like AMRAP of Helen in 10 minutes
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: 5x3 back squat
Day 6: running and gymnastics, so maybe 4 rounds, 400m run, 50 squats
Day 7: AMRAP wod, 250m Row, 10 deadlifts 135#, and 20 pushups in 10 minutes

Whatever happened to this kind of programming? Because I really don't feel that the "old" template for programming was all that bad. Yes, there is still more HIT than should probably be present, and yes, it does lack focused strength work, BUT I don't think a programming template like the one I listed would be causing all the issues and injuries people are experiencing trying to follow the current programming.

I don't really feel that Crossfit as a concept is a dangerous concept. Why can't you work on weightlifting, throwing, gymnastics, and running? I mean, that's not all that different from the decathlete training we've been discussing. I just think the problem with Crossfit as a program is the implementation of that program. High intensity training day after day with relatively heavy loads and high reps just isn't conducive to long term health and fitness.

The "scaling" is majorly lacking as well. A workout like "Grace" might not be such a bad workout if you made a point to keep the weight low in relation to your 1RM. I've never really understood why they "Rx" weights. Why should Fran be done with 95#? What is the significance? Why not 45# or 155#?

I guess what I'm trying to say is couldn't Crossfit as a program be improved by improving its implementation? I really feel that many of the concepts, such as favoring shorter anaerobic training over aerobic training or using compound movements instead of isolation movements are smart training concepts and have validity. It seems to me that the "theory" is ok, but the actual "practice" is not reflective of the concepts and ideas behind it.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:52 PM   #149
Andrew Wilson
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:10 PM   #150
Andrew Wilson
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Another SLAP tear:
Originally Posted by Paul Richards
Not the way I hoped to make a first post, but life is constantly varied ...

I expect I'm going to be put in the position of having to select a surgeon to do SLAP repair on my right shoulder. Have had PT for about 7 weeks on it now with no lasting relief (manual release therapy, dry needling, the usual RC exercises such as LYTP, scapular retraction, etc). MRI was done last week (w/o contrast) and the radiologist report says "extensive" glenoid labral tear, along with a tear of the subscap tendon resulting in dislocation of long head bicep tendon.

PT says given that information there isn't much more they can do, and that to regain CF levels of activity she would go the surgical repair route. I see my GP/DO next tuesday but expect to hear something similar.

So the next step is to set up a consultation with one or more surgeons. I live in Colorado Springs, so I would hope there would be a good selection of Shoulder docs since the OTC training facility is here. I've never been under the knife for anything before so this is new ground to me.

I'll be seeing if there are recommendations from the gym/trainers (we have a bunch of ER docs in our box) but where else do you look? Googling for shoulder slap surgeons brought up a kayaker forum who had a lot of recommendations for practices in Vail CO, but that is about 5-6 hours away. When would you decide going that far is worth the logistical difficulties?

Thx, -Paul
Originally Posted by Celeste Boud

I just had a full capsule tightening (capsulorrhaphy) along with a labral repair (although I don't think my labral tear was quite as extensive as yours sounds), and I drove about 1.75 hours to have the surgery so that I could have the guy who works on the athletes at Duke University do it.
Originally Posted by Paul Richards
I guess part of the reason for my post was to find out if choosing the "best" surgeon you can find is important enough to warrant a long trip to work with them (and then all the logistical issues of followup during the long recovery).

I'm really of the mindset that I want
1. To do this right the first time
2. To be able to continue in CF and gymnastics strengthening
Originally Posted by Michael Dries
So you're look at 9 months to back to pull ups? Jesus, I have 3 tears in my left labrum and my right shoulder (never had checked) has "moved around unwantedly" in the middle of the night twice in the last 3 months resulting in weeks of pain and recovery.
Originally Posted by Troy Peterson

I'm also sitting with labrum tear & supraspinatus partial (40%) tear, with some chrondomalacia added for flavoring. For the past month I've been weighing my options and am strongly leaning towards getting the SLAP repair done....I'll also throw in a couple other points:

1. I did goto a ortho clinic that has worked with local sports (college & pro) for years.
2. When I do return to CF activities, I'm going to be extremely aware of my form/technique...on everything. That awareness has already begun, was there to a degree prior......but I wouldn't be lurking in this thread if I hadn't done something to injure myself.
3. When I return, it may not be w/out modifications. While I'm over a decade your junior, that still doesn't leave me in my 20's. I need to weigh out "How important is a sub 16:00 Angie time (w/ 100 pullups followed by 100 pushups)" vs. "How important is being able to CF, maybe without some of the high rep hammering on my shoulders". There might be a reason you don't see too many 40+, >6 foot, 200# gymnasts running around.

I think I hurt my shoulder doing high rep OH squat workout (lazy shoulder, let shoulders sag with bar overhead) over a year ago (felt a slight pop and had numbness/tingling in my arm for a couple days). I wasn't aware of possible severity and continued to workout out, likely causing my body to compensate in unsafe ways and further injuring myself. This of course is all hindsight.
Originally Posted by Paul Richards
I got into crossfit about 18 months ago after a long period of inactivity/stress/etc. I made the decision at the time to try to drop any preconceptions and expectations I had so I could start with a clean slate, and avoid stressing about progressing on a particular schedule, and just try to "enjoy the ride." With the support of our local box trainers, this has worked splendidly. I'm down 60lbs bodyweight, make fairly steady progress in both intensity and strength (except for overhead stuff since the shoulder acted up), and have an agreement with the trainers to slap me down (i.e. remind me who I'm really competing with) when I start grousing about not keeping up with the 20-somethings. So I'm just going to keep trying new things and see where it takes me. I may have just found a limit that I have to work around, but work around it I will. If I can gain some skill/strength working on new things I win. That's all I can ask for -- better tomorrow than today.
Originally Posted by Paul
In the meanwhile, I'm planning on continuing doing the shoulder exercises the PT gave me, as well as doing scaled versions of our local boxes WODs (the last advice the PT gave me was the "if it hurts don't do it" rule). We tend to follow main site programming so Fridays "Diane" was done with box-assisted HSPUs (DLs don't give the shoulder any problems as long as i keep form impeccable.) I'm operating under the assumption that keeping things moving and under *some* load is better than inactivity. I'm also doing KStarr's Mobility Wod shoulder routines.

But if some of that stuff is wrong, or if there's something else I should add to the mix for the next three weeks, please feel free to speak up.

Originally Posted by Paul Richards
His recommendation is not only for an arthroscopic SLAP repair, but feels that the bicep tendon will never settle back into the groove in the humerus properly on it's own. He's recommending a bicipital tenodesis, which is detachment of the bicep long head tendon from the labrum, shortening it, and anchoring it to the humeral head with an anchor. This procedure will have to be done through a non-arthroscopic anterior incision between the deltoid and the bicep.

Needless to say I'm nervous about a procedure that removes something I only have one set of!

So, for the general community -- have any of you had a tenodesis performed? If so what has your post-surgery experience been, both recovery and resuming weight-bearing activity afterward? The Ortho is asserting that he's done a lot of these and I should be able to resume the activities I told him I was doing currently as well as what I was hoping to continue doing (Crossfit related, etc).
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