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Old 07-15-2011, 08:28 AM   #1741
Derek Weaver
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I never going to play the crossfit drinking game ever fucking again.




Nice thanks.

Yeah its the exercises pullups, ghd situps, kettlebell, set for 100 reps. Even less, I've posted rhabdo's with 45 reps in the pullups. The eccentric muscle action itself, is a contraction, but instead of shortening, its "resisting and letting go" of the previously shortened contraction, fibers are being stretched, but resisting the stretch with the contraction, which is where the muscle trauma is happening. They're telling people that can't even do 10 dead hang pullups to do 100 to "improve their work capacity". They're not prepared for this. If they can't reach 100 reps in 2-4 sets they shouldn't be doing them at all. So they're being overloaded and abused.
The same is said with the box jumps, the most worthless and pointless exercise of all time. Its not the act jumping onto the box that improves your jumping ability, its the falling off the box-landing- then jumping, your calves and legs reacting against the impact, and immediately switching from an eccentric to concentric contraction, or the stretch-shortening cycle, that improves your jumping ability. There is an incredible amount of force here, too much of this force (reps) ruptures the achilles (landing absorber), which is why Verkhoshansky said only do 40 max.
Crossfitters do not know this, because they're uneducated and unqualified. They assume just because its a movement with function its infallible.
Regarding the achilles ruptures again: The impact, contraction etc all puts big time stress on the calves and achilles, which I get.

However here is the other question that has come up for me. It's also been people that were doing heavy deads coupled with a sprint and then POP, there goes the achilles. Is it that the achilles has already been under enough stress due to poor programming and scheduling? Poor maintenance of the soft tissues, not being prepared for the workload?

Or a combination of these things?

It's just odd to me that CFers are destroying one of the toughest tendons in the human body.
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Old 07-15-2011, 08:43 AM   #1742
Andrew Wilson
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It's also been people that were doing heavy deads coupled with a sprint and then POP, there goes the achilles. Is it that the achilles has already been under enough stress due to poor programming and scheduling? Poor maintenance of the soft tissues, not being prepared for the workload?

Or a combination of these things?

It's just odd to me that CFers are destroying one of the toughest tendons in the human body.
I would say the combination. I've seen a ton of achilles tendinitis posts looking for the ruptures.
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Old 07-15-2011, 08:50 AM   #1743
Derek Weaver
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I guess the "not being prepared for the workload" is pretty much the same as poor programming and scheduling. Though it could mean a poor warm up given the impending workout.

Back to the deadlift + run/sprint injuries: Since the deadlift works pretty much everything from the traps down to just below the knee, could it also be that there is some underlying tightness that goes in with the increased force of the running/sprinting? I think that makes sense, but figuring other people who are smarter than i am may have a better explanation.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:21 PM
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:00 PM   #1744
Steven Low
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The other athletes that get SLAP lesions the most are baseball pitchers.

When the pitcher is winding up the ball to throw right as the ball is being accelerated forwards there is an extreme external rotation/flexion torque on the shoulder.

Tim Lincecum for example




The left most applies the most to kipping pullups.

Well, when you look at kipping pullups what do you see at the bottom of the pullup:



Pretty self explanatory really.

--------------------------------------------

Okay, so the things that I've seen that tend to be risk factors for SLAP lesions are:

Poor technique -- obviously if you're jerking down from the kipping pullup that's putting a lot more stress on your shoulders than not.

Being weak -- women in general have this issue with kipping pullups. When you don't have as much muscle to absorb the forces at the bottom of the pullup the other soft tissue structures like the labrum (where the long head of the biceps connects into) absorbs the force.

Accumulated force of the long head biceps tendon pulling on the superior labrum site where it conects it yields...... superior labrum anterior to posterior tear.... who woulda thought. As the arm is being forced backwards and out the front of the tendon is pulling at the anterior part of the super labrum and thus tears anterior to posterior.

Same mechanism as a pitcher.

Hypermobile -- again an issue that affects women more than men due to hormones and such. Obviously, muscles are weaker near the ends of their range of motion, and the more motion you have the weaker the muscles at the end are.... and well, the other structures pick and the forces and.... tear.


In general, if you are male, strong, generally inflexible, and have good technique you will be less susceptible to a SLAP lesion if you do kipping pullups. Hence why you almost never see this issue with the "elite" athletes.

You mostly see males with crappy technique getting SLAP lesions. And women who are weak and hypermobile (which often go with one another).

If you're a women, weak, hypermobile, and don't know how to do kipping pullups I would absolutely suggest not trying to learn them at least until you stronger. Much stronger.


/end anatomy and biomechanics lesson
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Last edited by Steven Low : 07-15-2011 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:07 PM   #1745
Andrew Wilson
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Great post. Steven how different is a legitimate gymnastics kipping pullup from a crossfit kipping pullup?
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:37 PM   #1746
Ryan Hoegner
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I guess the "not being prepared for the workload" is pretty much the same as poor programming and scheduling. Though it could mean a poor warm up given the impending workout.

Back to the deadlift + run/sprint injuries: Since the deadlift works pretty much everything from the traps down to just below the knee, could it also be that there is some underlying tightness that goes in with the increased force of the running/sprinting? I think that makes sense, but figuring other people who are smarter than i am may have a better explanation.
Derek, I nuked my achilles playing basketball after a couple year absence. Had the ball on the outside of the 3 point, tried to take off to the basket and it felt like somebody kicked me in the calf. I had no idea what was going on. Never felt any pain leading up to this.

Just about anything can cause the injury. It's most common in 35-50 year old weekend warrior basketball and tennis players (from what I read and my ortho). We're now finding out that Cf'ers doing high rep box jumps is eventually going to right up there, too. My buddies brother did it stepping out of a swimming pool.

It's a pretty shitty injury to say the least. I am 6 months post operation. Ran 5 200's lastnight for come conditionong work and back squat 315lbs for 3x5 today.
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Old 07-15-2011, 02:30 PM   #1747
Steven Low
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Great post. Steven how different is a legitimate gymnastics kipping pullup from a crossfit kipping pullup?
Depends what kind you're talking about.

Traditionally, the kind of kip used for kipping pullups is used very sparingly. It's only really "taught" through being able to perform rings swings which are highly technique based (and hence hours upon hours are spent on them). The positions of the arch/hollow for the swing, and then somewhat on the bar too I guess. There's no bend of the arms and jerking around like kipping pullups though.

My gym personally did not ever use kipping pullups. Jus strict pullups.

What is typically called a kip on the bar to get up is the swing skill which does not take the shoulder to the extreme end range of motion so it's not like the kipping pullup at all.
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:11 PM   #1748
Andrew Wilson
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Depends what kind you're talking about.

Traditionally, the kind of kip used for kipping pullups is used very sparingly. It's only really "taught" through being able to perform rings swings which are highly technique based (and hence hours upon hours are spent on them). The positions of the arch/hollow for the swing, and then somewhat on the bar too I guess. There's no bend of the arms and jerking around like kipping pullups though.

My gym personally did not ever use kipping pullups. Jus strict pullups.

What is typically called a kip on the bar to get up is the swing skill which does not take the shoulder to the extreme end range of motion so it's not like the kipping pullup at all.
Oh okay. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UubYPPX0Z8E

Are SLAP tears common in gymnastics?
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:44 PM   #1749
Derek Weaver
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Derek, I nuked my achilles playing basketball after a couple year absence. Had the ball on the outside of the 3 point, tried to take off to the basket and it felt like somebody kicked me in the calf. I had no idea what was going on. Never felt any pain leading up to this.

Just about anything can cause the injury. It's most common in 35-50 year old weekend warrior basketball and tennis players (from what I read and my ortho). We're now finding out that Cf'ers doing high rep box jumps is eventually going to right up there, too. My buddies brother did it stepping out of a swimming pool.

It's a pretty shitty injury to say the least. I am 6 months post operation. Ran 5 200's lastnight for come conditionong work and back squat 315lbs for 3x5 today.
Wait, stepping out of a pool? Yeesh.
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Old 07-16-2011, 09:17 AM   #1750
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