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Old 01-14-2011, 01:00 PM   #401
Arien Malec
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Bryan - look above a few posts to the CFJ article I pointed to. Glassman himself notes that GHR situps cause these issues, and documents a case study. This isn't something Andrew is making up.
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Old 01-14-2011, 01:21 PM   #402
Bryan Kemper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arien Malec View Post
Bryan - look above a few posts to the CFJ article I pointed to. Glassman himself notes that GHR situps cause these issues, and documents a case study. This isn't something Andrew is making up.
Arien: I am not questioning the potential for Rhabdo with GHD situps. They are very difficult and any WOD with GHD situps should be approaching with caution and reason. Anyone regardless of training level should be care with GHD situps if they do not do them on a regular basis.

I am questioning the statement that the WOD "Annie" (50-40-30-20-10 Double unders and situps) as a cause for rhabdo. Why and how could 150 total situps cause rhabdo.

Bryan
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:25 PM   #403
Andrew Wilson
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:15 PM   #404
Bryan Kemper
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Andrew,

Interesting response on many levels. You are very passionate about this subject and apparently have spent much time formulating your ideas. Good work. I personally enjoy the training methodology that I currently use...functional movements, constantly changing, high intensity. I like compound lifts that you can relate to real life...deadlifts, cleans, squats, pullups, etc. Isolations movements bore me incredibly and doing 3 sets of 12 of 6 to 8 different bicep variations are the reason that I never really got into weights any sooner. I like performing couplets and triplets with weight at high intensity....much better than a 30 minute slog on the treadmill.

I understand that many of the Crossfit masses just want the Met-con burn and the feeling of a sweat angel at the end of a 45 minute beat down day after day. Eventually you get the same chronic cardio cortisol effects as Spinning every day. So many of the masses need to have time with a heavy barbell performing compound lifts with good form. On the other had, the "F*** Cardio" globo-gym weight rats could use a good dose of a 30 min met-con once in a while as well.

This all comes down to proper programming, either from an affiliate that stives to be a good coach for their clients or if someone prefers to do the main site WODs, then good common sense needs to be had by all. Appropriate scaling, appropriate time domains, sensible weights, but then you have to challenge your self. Get out of the gym comfort zone and break a sweat, but do it with Good mechanics in a consistent manner with the appropriate intensity.

When I started this two years ago, I could not do any pullups. I have worked dead hang, weighted, kipping and CTB pullups and now hold my own with pullups. When WODs with a boat load of pullups comes up, I know that it will suck but I can do it in a safe manner. You mention Angie as a potential rhabdo scenario (100 PU, 100 Squats, 100 push ups, 100 situps). It is deceptively easy WOD that has a whole of suck to it, but it is doable. You have to be responsible to perform at an appropriate intensity level that is constructive not constructive. Any injury that results in someone not being able to train is irresponsible. I would not be able to any of the four moves above without stopping, but I could complete the WOD and train the next day.

Certifications are a very interesting world. A level 1 is required to open an affiliate. I do not believe that is all that is required to be a successful trainer. If someone is serious about training and improving their clients performance, they would be pursuing education at all levels. But you have to agree, some fitness certifications are less than desirable than others. At least with a level 1 cert, you have to actually do something other than read a book, perhaps sit through a lecture and take a test. You actually have to do something physical. It is a lot of PVC work and perhaps could be better with a loaded barbell, but you are doing something. An exercise phys degree would be a great goal, but how much of the science based on faulty dogma? Squats to parallel are bad for you, don't get above 60% of your max heart rate.

The world would be better if there was some sort of consensus on what was required for a trainer, but properly regulating them would be a nightmare from state to state and country to country. Not mention, there are so many methodologies to choose from. Weight training, aerobic, low impact, high impact, no impact, etc. Crossfit may or may not be the fitness holy grail, but I still recommend it to anyone to get good at a good spectrum of fitness.

Reading this thread and the Couch thread at irongarm is quite interesting. It is good to call a spade a spade at time and to try to the the Emperor that he is in fact naked, but it does get frustrating reading that everything is negative all the time.
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:24 PM   #405
Wayne Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Kemper View Post
This all comes down to proper programming, either from an affiliate that stives to be a good coach for their clients or if someone prefers to do the main site WODs, then good common sense needs to be had by all.
Using the phrases "common sense" and "proper programming" in reference to "main site wod's" is an oxymoron in my book. I've done the main site wod's and I was left wondering what the hell were the people smoking when they came up with the programming model. This is within the last two years for a point of reference.
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:27 PM   #406
Andrew Wilson
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:13 PM   #407
Andrew Wilson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Riddle View Post
Using the phrases "common sense" and "proper programming" in reference to "main site wod's" is an oxymoron in my book. I've done the main site wod's and I was left wondering what the hell were the people smoking when they came up with the programming model. This is within the last two years for a point of reference.
This reminds me how CrossFit validates their workouts by relying on and throwing out that their "metabolic conditioning" (every physical activity requires metabolic activity for bioenergetics, and repeated is conditioning) are designed for certain time domains and energy systems. How many wods, when you've seen a CrossFitter perform, go into steady state after five to six minutes during a workout and coast? Seems to me every single workout, except strength work or a sub 4 Fran. It also seems to me, that they fail to address these time zones of effort while performing their workouts as well as in their programming. We rarely see workouts specifically set to be performed in these energy pathways and their time domains:

We rarely see a 20 second wod, we rarely see a 50 second wod, and once in a blue moon we'll see a 2 minute wod; nor are these used in intervals. This is not seen over the broad spectrum of CrossFit athletes and their workouts. It only seems to me that they focus in two time domains, the 1st and 5th, rarely the 1st, often three times a month, unless they're doing the 5/3/1. By their own definition they are not training across broad time and modal domains, only everything thrown in at once.

True metabolic training as seen in track and field, is such as:
Squat, SN, CJ, Bench, Press, DL (#1)
30-60m sprints (#1)
100m sprints (#2)
200m sprints (#3)
400m sprints (#3)
600m sprints (#4)
800m sprints (#4)
1000m, 3000m, 5000m, 10000m (#5)
and are used oftentimes as intervals, interchanged, and have relative rest specific to the proposed training effect.
That's REAL metabolic training.
This isn't seen in CrossFit, they seem to focus on everything beyond 5 minutes at the quickest, and not a dominant system needed in a specific time of work. I believe this is limiting their fitness. Sure they are using different muscle groups a certain times during the wod, but its sloppily prescribed, most are broken, fatigued, last at different speeds, different forces, recruiting different fibers, are in the middle of total body activity, and without rest to replenish the ES. And they may be using them in one workout, as with every type of physical activity but they're not actually training any of them purposely and individually in the training process, as dominant energy systems or at certain time domains.
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:59 PM   #408
Tom Woodward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Kemper View Post
You mention Angie as a potential rhabdo scenario (100 PU, 100 Squats, 100 push ups, 100 situps). It is deceptively easy WOD that has a whole of suck to it, but it is doable. You have to be responsible to perform at an appropriate intensity level that is constructive not constructive. Any injury that results in someone not being able to train is irresponsible. I would not be able to any of the four moves above without stopping, but I could complete the WOD and train the next day.
Bryan you seem to have a solid head on your shoulders so I'm really curious, why would you do a workout like Angie? If it's just for the enjoyment of it, then I guess that's up to you, but do you think it's contributing to your long term fitness?

You can go on and on about common sense and scaling, but it's BS for workouts like Angie. People who don't have proper scapular control, hip mobility, or ability to brace their core shouldn't even be doing a scaled version of that. The problem is in the CrossFit class model, there is ONE workout, either Rx'ed or scaled, and neither is appropriate for some people.
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:59 PM   #409
Brian DeGennaro
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Basically Andrew's been saying this is the biggest scam since bottled water...
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:17 PM   #410
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