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Old 12-04-2010, 01:52 PM   #11
Arien Malec
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Insulin has gotten way too much credit for its ability to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics.
Yep. You eat 33% more calories than normal, they have to go some place. They either go to building body tissues (muscle, fat, tendons, etc.) which leads to weight gain, or they go to movement or heat.

Continuous bouldering consumes a ton of calories (although I tend to see folks do a route, rest, do another route, rest, etc. so the calories/hr may not be as high as the 700-900 claimed).

Bouldering isn't NEPA, BTW, it's exercise - NEPA accounts for fidgeting, toe tapping, spontaneous moving around, etc.

It's possible that when Justin started eating more, he started moving more, during bouldering (he had more energy to stay on the wall longer), and during the day (more walking, etc.) that took up the extra 1000 calories.

On the intake side, unless there's hyper-obsessive WAM by an objective party, even Fitday is a guide, not truth. For instance, I'm trying to lose a bit of fat. Today, I ate some roast beef. The total calories I ate are highly determined by how much fat I managed to strip off, and how much I actually ate. It's possible that if Justin and I both maintained a Fitday account and entered the roast beef, he'd overestimate his intake (eating more is hard for him and he wants to believe), and I'd underestimate intake (same dealio in reverse).

The basic basic truth is that if you aren't gaining weight, you need to eat more. If you aren't losing weight, you need to eat less.

There are tricks to mass gain and weight loss outside that basic truth (amount of protein consumed, IF, cyclic carb intake, etc.), but 90% of it is captured by that basic truth.
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Old 12-04-2010, 01:55 PM   #12
Arien Malec
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I've done a couple of 20RM squat exercises.. the after effects are quite interesting
Jelly legs? Walking like an old man? Crippling DOMS? Massive appetite?
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Old 12-04-2010, 03:06 PM   #13
Andrew Midmer
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From a recent lalonde seminar he basically said 30% protein, 60% fat, 10% cho. His science behind it was very impressive. I can't see how the premise that: kcals in - kcals out = weight gain/loss. There's more to it.
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Old 12-04-2010, 03:39 PM   #14
Arien Malec
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From a recent lalonde seminar he basically said 30% protein, 60% fat, 10% cho. His science behind it was very impressive.
If it works for you, do that. There are healthy populations (paleo and neo) who do different stuff from that, and it's hard to believe that the human body is hardwired for one magic macro breakdown (that would violate the basic assumption that paleo is built on).

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I can't see how the premise that: kcals in - kcals out = weight gain/loss. There's more to it.
The variables aren't independent, so the equation isn't so simple as "skip desert, get lean"

More protein in --> more energy out from digestion/TEF
more calories in --> more energy out from NEAT/NEPA and RMR

It's also certain that some people have lower appetites, better leptin sensitivity, and better nutrient partitioning, and it's possible that some of that can be affected by stuff like macro ratios, IF, and empirically, cyclic dieting works well for both fat loss and mass gain. And it's always better to eat nutrient dense food than to eat crap.

But yes, before messing with any of that stuff, if you aren't losing, eat less, if you aren't gaining, eat more.

The trick in any diet is how to do that: for some people, eating less is hard; and the reverse is true as well.
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Old 12-04-2010, 10:11 PM   #15
Justin Arnold
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So, have any "truths" about mass-gain on a ketogenic diet?



After effects of 20RM did include jelly legs.. but the most interesting one was the serious head-buzz.

Point taken on NEPA and bouldering. Though I would point out I do a whole lot more resting than climbing. Maybe that's why after 10 years I still have trouble thinking of it as exercise.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:13 PM   #16
Arien Malec
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So, have any "truths" about mass-gain on a ketogenic diet?
When I did it, it was on a crap-load of coconut milk and shots of olive oil. Today, I'd go cyclic ketogenic, with carbs post workout.
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:51 AM   #17
Derek Weaver
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Originally Posted by Andrew Midmer View Post
From a recent lalonde seminar he basically said 30% protein, 60% fat, 10% cho. His science behind it was very impressive. I can't see how the premise that: kcals in - kcals out = weight gain/loss. There's more to it.
I don't know Lalonde, and won't attack him or his specific practices, but I've never seen any science in favor of a) percentages, b) fat intake having to be that high for any reason.

Most of the studies that support that type of an approach are faulty at best. People noting that they lose more weight on a low carb diet are usually doing a few things:
- Unintentionally lowering caloric intake through the restriction of carbohydrate.
- Not actually losing much past the initial phase of a few weeks. Depleting carbohydrate/glycogen stores is going to result in a pretty big loss of water. It's easy to lose 5-6 lbs in a week, even for a small person, when first restricting carbohydrate. the weight loss then either flattens out, or stops.
- Aren't done under metabolic ward conditions.

I'm not saying low carb is bad, but assigning ketogenic diet percentages for speedy fat loss has several flaws. One being that it's not required for health or fat loss. There was no singular paleo diet, I believe it's a cop out to say that Asians do better on carbs because they're carb adapted Asians. Asians do better at not getting fat because they usually don't eat as much as us.

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Originally Posted by Justin Arnold View Post
So, have any "truths" about mass-gain on a ketogenic diet?
....
Like Arien said, CKDs are best if the need to be ketogenic is present. Carbs are required for decent performance. Cycling them can ease the psychological burden for most.

Trying to get enough volume to grow, with the absence of carbs can be a real problem. The "bonk" comes much faster, and then people note that they can't handle volume. I actually thought that until I started eating ~2x the carbs I was eating before. Now, I've made it through a relatively high stress and high volume program for 3/4 starting the final 4 week block tomorrow, and I've had no real issues to note.

Last note on for this long winded post:
- Often people like to point to Gary Taubes as debunking the idea that calories don't matter. That somehow, humans, but no other animals, are exempt from the laws of thermodynamics. There are certainly some populations that are going to have extenuating circumstances that make this closer to true. People with thyroid conditions would be an example

In the end though, it's about eating less. Eat Stop Eat is an effective intermittent fasting approach because it wipes out 1-2 days worth of food from the diet.

Why do people feel like calories don't really count, but when they want to gain weight, the answer is always "eat more"?

I said it in another thread just a second ago, but the issue isn't anti- low carb diets. Or anti- high carb diets. It's anti the wrong diet given the individual and the situation.
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Old 12-05-2010, 06:27 AM   #18
Andrew Midmer
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lalonde's premise was to eat in a way that restricted leaky gut and a host of other autoimmune diseases.

As for me, I just prefer low carb and higher fat diet.

As for exercise currently experimenting with the Triumvirate - with some adaptations to fit aspirations to compete in team CF challenges.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:28 AM   #19
Arien Malec
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lalonde's premise was to eat in a way that restricted leaky gut and a host of other autoimmune diseases.
That generally is interpreted as avoiding lectins, gluten, etc. rather than arguing for a particular macro ratio.

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As for me, I just prefer low carb and higher fat diet.
Generally, I do as well, and if totally keto works for you, cool.

However, if it helps performance or mass gain, don't be afraid to carb-up after exercise, and there are Paleo friendly ways to do so (e.g., squashes, sweet potatoes, celery root, parsnips, etc.), and some "not quite Paleo but not totally evil" ways to do so (e.g., white potatoes, fermented corn (mmm, corn tortillas)).

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As for exercise currently experimenting with the Triumvirate - with some adaptations to fit aspirations to compete in team CF challenges.
That should be enough volume, particularly if one of your triumvirate exercises is a high rep squat session :-)
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:32 AM   #20
Arien Malec
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People noting that they lose more weight on a low carb diet are usually doing a few things:
One more thing, per Lyle: low carb promotes lypolysis. That's the rationale for cyclic diets for mass gains: the low carb maintenance or slightly sub maintenance promotes lypolysis, exercise promotes positive nutrient partitioning post workout.

But this is a bit wankery. Eat more...
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