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Old 12-10-2010, 03:18 PM   #11
Joshua Straiton
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Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
You must have known people were going to tell you you're doing too much, and you must have already come to conclusion that you were going to ignore them. So why make this thread at all? What do you think anyone could possibly contribute to your Totally Kick Ass Program?
I'm sorry if I came off that way. Not trying to ignore anybody, or to preach that my program is "totally kick ass." Just looking for some discussion and some input into whether people think with less volume I would make more progress, or if they would arrange workouts in a different order. I'm also curious on some longer endurance needing to be incorporated, but am not knowledgeable about its effects on strength performance. Just curious, and I'm sorry if I sounded like a jerk in my posts, not my intent.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:35 PM   #12
Emily Mattes
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In your defense, I was being kind of a bitch. But if you're making progress, and you think your progress is significant, and when people say it's too much volume you're like "Nah, I'm cool," then why ask for input?

What are your lifts now? This will also help determine how much of an emphasis you need on strength.

Look, you've got a couple of strength workouts in there, but you also have no point for them to recover which is going to effectively fuck up your gains. A "heavy deadlift WOD", if that's a deadlift-related metcon, is not a strength workout. A 5/3/1 squat and 5/3/1 deadlift day does not a strength training program make, especially when you're planning on scuttling recovery by adding in a bunch of other metcons the rest of the day. Are you planning on doing any upper-body strength work?

What is the point of doing two WODs in one session? If you have specific weaknesses that need to be addresses, whether they're form or strength related, how is doing them in an all-out conditioning format going to allow you to target them?

You're making progress now because you're male and 18 and extremely difficult to kill in that state. That doesn't mean you're making the best progress you could possibly make.

If I were you I would do three solid strength-training days a week. If you do a WOD on those days, make it a short one, and do it immediately after your strength-training session. If you do one of those long WODs, do it once a week, and have a rest day afterwards. Otherwise have your "long" sessions be something like going running rather than billions of pull-ups for hours.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:40 PM   #13
Jarod Barker
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I'll just throw this out here in regards to not doing CF programming and still being good at CF....

There was an OCS candidate I met, who was previously enlisted, and he served with Force Recon. In talking about training, he said that he pretty much just lifted heavy and ran. Then, like the naive idiot I am, I said to him, "oh you should try Crossfit, it'll blow your workouts away." He, being a kind and mature Marine, took me up on my advice, I think just to humor me. He went to the local CF affiliate, and they gave him Fran his first night.

Anyways, I'll cut to the chase. He did Fran in under 2 minutes. Everyone remarked to him how they wished they had brought a camera, asked him to come back and do it again, and apparently he got so much attention for it that he actually did not want to return. When I caught up with him, he remarked at how easy the 95 pound thruster was and asked me how does anyone get stronger using such light weight. My stupid answer, "you just go faster."

Just to give you an idea of his fitness level, I'll also make the point to mention that he could do reps with a 225 military press, and when we ran our PST, he ran the 3 miles in under 15 minutes, crossed the finish line not even out of breath and immediately lit a cigarette.

The point I'm trying to make is that obviously he had more than adequate strength from his weight lifting (not weightlifting) and PT with the Marines, and his cardio/endurance base was more than adequate as well likely due to running hard with a pack on uneven terrain among other things like O-courses and room clears, etc. So, you're getting solid advice here. You CAN improve your fitness level by working the parts separately.

I, like you, thought that I was going to improve my fitness level by stacking WODs and adding strength sessions, so I was basically working out 2-3x a day. Strength workouts early, and metcons at night. Now that I've stopped that... my strength has shot through the roof. Take the advice you're getting here seriously. Less work, more recovery = more progress.
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:42 PM   #14
Joshua Straiton
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Okay Emily, thanks again, and yes I understand.
My stats:
Height: 5'3"
Weight: 160lbs
Snatch: 205
Clean and Jerk: 235
Overhead Squat: 235
3RM Push Press (Closest thing to strict press, I know they aren't nearly the same)- 235
Deadlift- 415
Back Squat- 345
Front Squat- 305

And Chad, my strength has been increasing, just not nearly as fast as when I was O-lifting strickly. I began powerlifting three years ago, then found olympic lifting and fell in love. Crossfit is fun, but I would be strickly o-lifting if I didn't injure my back about a year back, but I'm working on range of motion and physical therapy type things to help my back. But I want to compete, and crossfit is great, and no matter the volume I have no back pain. My volume is ridiculous, and I know that. Your example of that marine is awesome and unarguable. I must admit my weakness is cardio specifically, I have good muscular endurance, running anything more than a 400 is horrible.
I will take advice. I am currently on a rest cycle, that I am enjoying SO much because the speed on my o-lifts increased instantaneously. There is nothing better than a great clean and jerk.... But thanks for the example Chad, I may throw some distant run in frequently until I can bare them.
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:56 PM
Derek Weaver
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:04 PM   #15
Joe Hart
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Gant Grimes has a nice little template that works strength and has some conditioning. If you surf for Starting Strength and CF Justin Lascek has some good stuff.

8weeksout.com has some interesting stuff for conditioning.
I may have missed it but what are your goals? Are you doing sports other than OLY and PL?

Program for your goals.

If CF turns your crank more power to you but you need to give the body some time to recover, yes I know 18 and bullet proof. I CFd for a while (shudder) and got some wicked tendonitis in the elbow and shoulder. I don't now on both accounts.

I think way back when, when CF was budding they said something about getting out and doing stuff not just WOD'in.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:31 AM   #16
Blair Lowe
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OL + 400m or 800m track work + pullups and pushups would have a much much more positive effect than doing the WODs
Didn't seem to workout for Josh Everett. Early on, yes but not anymore. Of course, Josh may be suffering from wear and tear these days.

One of the things about the games is how quickly you can recover from the ton of abuse you go through. Say what you want, but the ability to have a lot of workout capacity and be able to recover helps.

Another thing that helps is a long career before of athletic activity. Take for example, x athlete and then figure how long they have been doing that and then what they were doing before that as a young'n or kid. Many of those badass crossfitters come from established athletic backgrounds before the 1 or 2 years of crossfit under their belt.
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:21 AM   #17
Joshua Straiton
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One of the things about the games is how quickly you can recover from the ton of abuse you go through. Say what you want, but the ability to have a lot of workout capacity and be able to recover helps.

Another thing that helps is a long career before of athletic activity. Take for example, x athlete and then figure how long they have been doing that and then what they were doing before that as a young'n or kid. Many of those badass crossfitters come from established athletic backgrounds before the 1 or 2 years of crossfit under their belt.
I agree with this, the recovery aspect is important. Of course you never fully recover, but doing a lot of work does help to increase you recovery abilities as long as you aren't overtraining. But that kind of training should be closer to the games for me, maybe 8 weeks out with a taper at the end. For now I may focus on olympic lifting and shorter metcons to get stronger.

But to Joe, SS is not specialized enough, and I know I'm young, but I've been training solid for five years, and for two years before that doing stupid things but exercise none the less. My goal is to compete and win in the crossfit games.
I've looked at Gant 's program, its pretty awesome but I'm not sure it's for me. I might rethink it though, we'll see. Thanks for the replies everyone
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:21 AM   #18
Jon Pechette
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This is very interesting.
OL + 400m or 800m track work + pullups and pushups would have a much much more positive effect than doing the WODs... hmm or quite possibly do a decathlon program if interested. That would be a fascinating quasi case study
I agree that having a few people train with a decathlon program and compete in the CF games would be very interesting, I'd love to see it. As far as the OL + track work + pullups and pushups, it might prepare you well enough to get to the Games, but if you want to win I'm not so sure. Blair made a good point mentioning Josh Everett. He was good when there was less volume, but when they upped the volume he suffered.

I heard pretty much the same thing in an interview with Ben Smith. He is definitely someone to look up; 20 years old and easily one of the strongest people in the CF community. He said he had primarily been lifting heavy and running in preparation for the '09 Games, and he didn't do so well (he placed somewhere in the 60s maybe?). In preparation for the 2010 Games, he added more volume and did a lot better (8th at the Games). He described his training as something like this:

Morning:
Running or Rowing
+
CF WOD

Afternoon/Evening
OL or PL
+
CF WOD

Not sure about specifics, but you could try looking them up.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:27 AM   #19
Andrew Wilson
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Originally Posted by Blair Lowe View Post
Didn't seem to workout for Josh Everett. Early on, yes but not anymore. Of course, Josh may be suffering from wear and tear these days.

One of the things about the games is how quickly you can recover from the ton of abuse you go through. Say what you want, but the ability to have a lot of workout capacity and be able to recover helps.

Another thing that helps is a long career before of athletic activity. Take for example, x athlete and then figure how long they have been doing that and then what they were doing before that as a young'n or kid. Many of those badass crossfitters come from established athletic backgrounds before the 1 or 2 years of crossfit under their belt.
Fascinating, do you have any information I can look into on this?

I would disagree. For example my current decathlon program is as follows:
WRT: 2400m
WT: Weight Training 10RM squat x3, 10x10 Pushups with 10sec rest between x 4 series (400 total), 10x10 pullups with 10sec rest between sets x 4 series (400 total)
and 26mi of weekly running

Monday: WRT+RE, 4x100m, 4x200m, 4x100m
Tuesday: WT, Swim
Wednesday: WRT+RE, 3x150m hills
Thursday: WRT+RE, 6x1000m
Friday: WT, Swim
Saturday: 4x2km outdoor, 6x50m jumping run
Sunday: Recovery

2nd week
Monday: WRT+RE, 2x300m, 500m, 4x600m, 2x300m, 3x40m high frequency
Tuesday: WT, Swim
Wednesday: WRT+RE, 2x300, 4x1000, 500m, 300m, 3x40m high frequency
Thursday:WT, Swim
Friday: WRT+RE, 5x20m HS, 3x200m, 2x400m, 500m, 400m, 2x100m
Saturday: 6-8km
Sunday: Recovery

3rd week
Monday: WRT+RE, 5x30m acceleration, 3x150m, 1x200m, 3x600m, 4x100m
Tuesday: WT, Swim
Wednesday: WRT+RE, 2x60m HS, 3x300m, 100m, 2x300m, 100m, 300m
Thursday: WT, Swim
Friday: WRT+RE, 4x60m zig-zag, 5x400m, 3x60m zig-zag
Saturday: WRT+RE, 4x100m sled(10kg, 3x) 3x100, tap take-offs
Sunday: Recovery

All of this is high stimulation on the nervous system and needs strong ability to recover muscularly. 400m and 800m is even deeper.

BTW Josh, I forgot to mention that in Dr Siff's Supertraining and Dr Verk's Special Strength Training a Practical Manual for Coaches, there are both chapters that cover the circuit training methods they used to train Olympians.
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Old 12-11-2010, 10:10 AM   #20
Joshua Straiton
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BTW Josh, I forgot to mention that in Dr Siff's Supertraining and Dr Verk's Special Strength Training a Practical Manual for Coaches, there are both chapters that cover the circuit training methods they used to train Olympians.
Thanks Andrew I'll check this out.


And Jon, I'm interested in trying to find Ben Smith's training habits. The man is incredibly strong, and this year at the games he placed 8th like you said. If i find anything out I will surely post it.
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