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Old 01-17-2011, 10:08 AM   #31
Andrew Wilson
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...
Quote:
Today’s WOD:
800M Run
25 Burpees
500M Row
25 Box Jumps
400M Run
50 KB Swings (24kg/16kg)
500M Row
50 Wall Balls
Quote:
Today’s WOD:
400M Run
4 Rounds:
15 Deadlifts (185#/115#)
15 Push-Ups
400M Run
4 Rounds:
15 Deadlifts (185#/115#)
15 Push-Ups
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:13 AM   #32
Jacob Rowell
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Jacob you can't tell someone who has only run once in 3-4 months to do a 4x800m Run w 90second rest.
That's brutal.
800m sprint is the most brutal distance and intensity in track.
It's 114%+ VO2max over 2-3 minutes.
You're talking about sprinting a half mile as fast as possible four times in a row, with half the work time to recover.
If you have no preparation for that, you're going to get crushed.
Intervals are also done with paces, as not indicated in your wod.
You're not suppose to run 800m intervals at 800m pace, you're suppose to run them in 1500m, 3000m, or 5k pace with at the least 2:00 minutes of recovery.
Point well taken - I'm sure you know more about endurance training than I do. Did enjoy the Verk Middle Distance article you posted. I've applied some of those principles to an individual's programming, certainly interested to see how it all works out.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:14 AM   #33
Jacob Rowell
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Oh my god
At least 4 people got rhabdo off that one. 7 herniated discs, and 3 SLAP tears. I was shooting for more.

(I feel inclined to say I'm obviously kidding here. Who knows how this will be taken.)
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:18 AM   #34
Andrew Wilson
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Andrew, I've got no doubt that armed with a little Verkoshansky, Zatsiosky, and Siff by your side, you will duel me quite effortlessly on any response I have. I've seen incredible progress from many, many people, whether by CrossFit's definition or yours. Any injury is too many, and I admit to mine and only wish to improve, and only disagree that injuries can only be prevented entirely outside of the context of CrossFit.

For me, it's a moot point, and an argument I don't care to participate in. You win.

How'd we get to arguing anyways? It started out so nice...
Well not to say you haven't seen progress, and I'm sure you're a good trainer and have had great experiences with your clients, and progress will happen in any physical activity. My concern is long term. CrossFit may be a short exercise fix, but long term it's the number one candidate to cause problems. The evidence is in the injury forum. I see it that any precaution can be taken to prevent injury; mobility, pt, screening, but non of this is going to matter when the workouts are so extreme and over the top in movements that they're going to over run all preliminary efforts to prevent injuries.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:21 AM   #35
Andrew Wilson
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Point well taken - I'm sure you know more about endurance training than I do. Did enjoy the Verk Middle Distance article you posted. I've applied some of those principles to an individual's programming, certainly interested to see how it all works out.
Thank you. Professionals like this are the one's trainers and coaches should be listening too; but GG & CrossFit HQ, I do not understand.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:32 AM   #36
Jacob Rowell
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Well not to say you haven't seen progress, and I'm sure you're a good trainer and have had great experiences with your clients, and progress will happen in any physical activity. My concern is long term. CrossFit may be a short exercise fix, but long term it's the number one candidate to cause problems. The evidence is in the injury forum. I see it that any precaution can be taken to prevent injury; mobility, pt, screening, but non of this is going to matter when the workouts are so extreme and over the top in movements that they're going to over run all preliminary efforts to prevent injuries.
Really, I understand your arguments. Outside of arguing the general validity of CrossFit methods, I've enjoyed some of the well-intentioned posts especially talking directly about injury prevention. It would be great to hear more.

Like I said in the original post, at one point many affiliates came here, and while I have no way of validating this, I think that many have learned a great deal about more structured training from here. There's certainly the opportunity for more of that.
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:50 AM   #37
raj rihal
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A quick thought:

maybe have more transparency with the programming and its rational. This better educates clients as to why they are doing particular workouts and what benefit (or potential harm) it will have on them - both in the present and in the long term. This allows people to be more involved in their own injury prevention. Also, it may better inform the client whether the programming is going to fit their goals and needs.

For the life of me I can figure out how @fit is programmed from week to week. There is a pdf link in the forum post below, that is the closest thing to programming theory Ive seen. It just never feels like you're working towards anything...but that is just me.

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=58194
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:19 PM   #38
Garrett Smith
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Raj,
CF.com has been posting videos lately where Budding is presenting some sort of rationale behind the programming. They have been of no use to anyone, nor is any rationale logically presented.

There is no end goal, because fitness is determined by the context. For CF "fitness", one would appear to be fit if they do CF workouts better than the other people around them, as it is completely based on competition with others and not on standards generated through years of people undertaking the exact same task.
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:35 PM   #39
Gant Grimes
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I have always enjoyed the conversations with the guys in my gym. When one of us tweaks a program, the others will look over it and start with the questions. It's like defending a thesis.

"What is this supposed to do?"
"Why are you programming these in the same day?"
"How do you expect to recover from a Wednesday evening workout to hit 90% on Thursday at lunch?"
"You know you can't pull this off and still eat tacos every day?"

Sometimes the answer is "I don't know, but I think it will do XYZ." Somethings things don't work. But we always, ALWAYS have a good idea about exactly where a program will take us, and how long it will take to get us there.

This is the starting point. You should be able to explain what every rep in your cycle is supposed to accomplish. You might be wrong, but you should at least have a good guess.

You are also in the position of running a CF-branded business. Not everyone comes to your gym to get better. Some come for the abs but stay for the douche (nobody gives a damn about being elite-ly fit, whatever that means). You have to decide, do you throw these people a bone in the form of a chipper every once in awhile? As a business owner, you probably should. Just don't go overboard on the stupid.

Sara mentioned this, cycle down on the frenzy of activity. I vary mine to correspond with the intensity in 531 cycles. With very few exceptions, people will do better accumulating 5-10 minutes (preferably less) of volume work in a metcon situation. Sustained effort, minimal rest, just not frantic. You'd be surprised how little drop off in fitness and appearance there is.

CF started out as a great idea, and it's a nice template to increase general fitness and ability. Instead of throwing everything in the pot, learn how to program each discipline (treat WL like WL, treat sprinting like sprinting, etc.), and you'll have better results.

Some random thoughts:
* eliminate SDHP and butterfly kips
* Tabata is Tabata. Don't do more than one exercise, and don't do it more than once a week. I like 6-7 rounds (so did Tabata), but we're both dumbasses compared to Couch.
* "teaching DUs" before the trainee can do 3 minutes of a basic bounce or alternate leg at 150-180 rpm is stupid
* Don't let anyone do Roman chair situps quickly; if you have a GHD, use it as a GHD
* 6-10# Dynamax balls are extremely useful; 20#...not so much
* find other affiliates who program well and speak with them about best practices
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:42 PM   #40
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Raj,
CF.com has been posting videos lately where Budding is presenting some sort of rationale behind the programming. They have been of no use to anyone, nor is any rationale logically presented.
I was appalled at this. I was even more appalled at the sheep applauding this. After all this time, the mainpage WOD is still at the 'unconscious incompetence' stage of development.

This is no different than a high school kid working at Baskin Robbins mixing a bunch of crap together to see what comes out. That explains why most .com workouts are about as satisfying as a pistacchio butterscotch sundae with gummy bears and bacon bits.
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