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Old 01-26-2011, 02:39 PM   #11
Derek Weaver
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Originally Posted by Gavin Harrison View Post
Why is it that in these discussions people bash on WSBB for steroid use and claim practitioners who don't use steroids will fail to recover, etc, but those sorts of concerns don't seem to come up when discussing super secret russian methods which have shit tons more volume.

Anyhow, Joe Defranco's said before that WSBB inspired training is great for people who need to get strong really fast (ie, a 12 week summer break from college to prepare for football camp), but for the long term he prefers more traditional types of periodization.
For the first part I bolded: the high volume lay outs like Sheiko are pretty low intensity. As well, I've seen a quote to the effect that it is a foregone conclusion that high level lifters will be using. Once they get to a point they can no longer progress, they will need steroids. Just like WSBB.

So I'll disagree that the steroid issue doesn't come up. Whenever you're talking about strength training, and/or strength/power sports (PL, OLY, hell even HG), the steroid debate will arrive on the scene. This is especially true when the gym famous for it has a guy who openly admits steroid use. Let's not get too ruffled over this point.

Defranco probably has one of the better WSBB "inspired" programs out there. But still, more traditional periodization, or something w/ an a-reg angle to it, like RTS, is better for the unassisted lifter.
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Old 01-29-2011, 06:45 PM   #12
Will Peterson
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WSBB --

The method is developed for PL and is the brain child of a very smart S&C coach who tailors the method for the fortunate practitioners. This ability to tailor the assistance exercises is why the method is best for the more experienced lifter/ coach.

With regard to the Soviets and their drug use -- there is no doubt that it was out there during the periods when testing was less inclusive than it is now. Still, the key to much of the Soviet success was that they were in it with their athletes and used minimal amounts in order to achieve optimal recovery as opposed to the US athletes who had no doctor guidance (daily testing of metabolites in urine) to tailor their dosages. They used more and didn't get the maximum out of it (improved digestion ).

Well, both cycles need to be tailored by someone.
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:42 AM   #13
John P. Walsh
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Originally Posted by Gareth Rees View Post
I've read lots of people's opinions on here on training programs, mainly 5/3/1 and the Texas Method, but there's also a huge following of Westside Barbell in the world of strength training, and I've not heard a single person mention it on here.

So I was just wondering what everybody on here's opinions on it were, pro's and con's, how it measures up to other programs, or any other feelings you have on it?

With without AS usage and lifting gear you can't really maximize on WSB methods. It is designed for geared and drugged lifters. Not judging just stating facts.


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Old 03-02-2011, 12:48 PM   #14
Júlíus G. Magnússon
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I don't see how the pharmacological assistance should be of any concern. Instead of "maxing out 52 weeks a year," take a deload week every 3-6 weeks if you're clean.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:50 PM   #15
Tom Seryak
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Originally Posted by John P. Walsh View Post
With without AS usage and lifting gear you can't really maximize on WSB methods. It is designed for geared and drugged lifters. Not judging just stating facts.


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I would have disagreed until I recently switched over to a program heavily inspired by Wendler's program. On some of the 5-3-1 days, I will for-go the maximal effort on the last set and instead hit 3 heavy singles if I am feeling strong on that day. Also, we have been adding speed strength work on the de-load week only using the lighter percentages (50, 55, 60).

My numbers in 2010 barely budged (although I was combining westside w/ crossfit metcons for almost half of the year before I got my s#^*@ straight). We started the new programming January 1 and the progress has been outstanding since the switch. Within the last 2 weeks, I hit pr's on power clean, clean, power snatch, snatch, overhead press and deadlift. I'm guessing the next time I test bench press and squat will be all-time pr's. Of course, I am actually doing assistance work as it was meant to be designed now and doing very little conditioning work.

fwiw, i'm no ELEET lifter but i'm no novice either. at 180lbs here are my current pr's:

back squat - 435
deadlift - 490
overhead press - 200
bench press - 300
clean and jerk - 275
snatch - 195

looking back, westside for the raw, drug-free, advanced or below lifter ironically was too much variation and not enough good old progression for me. unfortunately, it kind of reminds me of another program
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:34 PM   #16
Derek Weaver
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Originally Posted by Júlíus G. Magnússon View Post
I don't see how the pharmacological assistance should be of any concern. Instead of "maxing out 52 weeks a year," take a deload week every 3-6 weeks if you're clean.
That's not the purpose of a WSBB approach. They max out every week, rotating movements to supposedly avoid nervous system burnout. If I'm missing something, correct me, but between the insane variety, large amount of assistance work etc, the average, drug free lifter isn't likely to sustain that.

There's a reason that Tate and Wendler's post Westside/Powerlifting programming approaches look so different.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:38 PM   #17
Gareth Rees
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Originally Posted by John P. Walsh View Post
With without AS usage and lifting gear you can't really maximize on WSB methods. It is designed for geared and drugged lifters. Not judging just stating facts. /[/url]
Thanks for your resposnse john, and I appreciate all responses, but if you just make a point and don't back them up with further explanation then it's not very valid.

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Originally Posted by Tom Seryak View Post
I would have disagreed until I recently switched over to a program heavily inspired by Wendler's program. On some of the 5-3-1 days, I will for-go the maximal effort on the last set and instead hit 3 heavy singles if I am feeling strong on that day. Also, we have been adding speed strength work on the de-load week only using the lighter percentages (50, 55, 60).

looking back, westside for the raw, drug-free, advanced or below lifter ironically was too much variation and not enough good old progression for me. unfortunately, it kind of reminds me of another program
That's interesting Tom. Was that a program that you conjoined yourself, or did you pick it up somewhere else?
Adding speed-strength work in the deload seems a little counter-productive to me as it kind of defeats the whole purpose of a deload. Did you not feel at all burned out from it?
I don't personally see how anybody can not be happy with the variety offered, and similar with the progression as it's always there as you're constantly trying to break PB's, but 'hey', each to their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Weaver View Post
That's not the purpose of a WSBB approach. They max out every week, rotating movements to supposedly avoid nervous system burnout. If I'm missing something, correct me, but between the insane variety, large amount of assistance work etc, the average, drug free lifter isn't likely to sustain that.

There's a reason that Tate and Wendler's post Westside/Powerlifting programming approaches look so different.
I have to agree to an extent, and also see the volume as excessive and don't see how anybody would keep it up without any kind of deload or slight change in program. Though i will say that louie does actually suggest very occasionally switching a ME day for high rep work as a change of stimulus.
That Wendler/Tate point is very fair, but could it not be just to stamp their own views on the S&C industry, and correcting flaws that they see?
One last point, I personally know a person who is a good friend of mine, who is British Junior Powerlifting champ of his W/C who very avidly follows a very WSBB inspired plan, and I am 100% sure that he is on nothing more than protein shakes and glutamine. This must mean something?
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:05 PM   #18
Tom Seryak
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Originally Posted by Gareth Rees View Post
That's interesting Tom. Was that a program that you conjoined yourself, or did you pick it up somewhere else?
Adding speed-strength work in the deload seems a little counter-productive to me as it kind of defeats the whole purpose of a deload. Did you not feel at all burned out from it?
I don't personally see how anybody can not be happy with the variety offered, and similar with the progression as it's always there as you're constantly trying to break PB's, but 'hey', each to their own.
Gareth-

i appreciate speed strength for what it is (i don't need it to necessarily improve max effort strength), so I wanted to include it somehow in the wendler template when i switched over. if you look at wendler's recommended deload week it is 1x5 @ 40, 50 and 60%. i will do for example on bench day:

3x3 @ 50%
3x3 @ 55%
3x3 @ 60%

I guess you could say that I am "loading" speed strength but it terms of absolute load it is a very light week and the volume isn't significantly higher either (27 reps versus wendler's 15). I still deload the assistance work. fwiw, my speed on all lifts seems to be tremendously better than it was before when i was doing speed work every week.

the variety of movements is very cool with louie's system. i will most definitely fall back on this if any of my lifts begin to slow in progress. what i noticed in myself and in my clients was that switching the max effort movement every week was too much variation, not enough progression. i like chris mason's program where he suggests modifying louie's system so that you rotate max effort movements only once every 3 to 4 weeks instead of every week. this, to me, would be a much better option for most lifters. i incorporated me/de weekly training many times over a period of 7 or so years and without fail, I would start to move backwards after 3-4 months of steady training. recovering for 2 max effort and 2 dynamic effort training sessions weekly, without any help from vitamin S, is very difficult...
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:37 PM   #19
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It's nearly impossible to get 3 or more people agreeing on what the "westside" method is let alone understanding whether what it "is" requires anabolics or not.

There is a general consensus that what we think of as "westside" includes one day a week of Max Effort work for the upper and lower body. These exercises are rotated with some regularity (anywhere between 1-6 weeks) and much focus is paid to accessory exercises that target a lifter's weaknesses. Add in either a day of speed work is or repetition work and you have the basis for what most people call "westside" . This "approach" (not program) is used successfully by many drug free powerlifters both geared and raw. whether or not you can call it "westside" is more controversial than whether or not it works.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:12 PM   #20
Cain Morano
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Can we agree on what WSBB is if we draw our material directly from the Westside Book of Methods?

My interpretation of WSBB is 1) Specifically, what Louie Simmons directly prescribes to his athletes in his gym, and 2) Generally, use of the conjugate method in training outside of WSBB. I would not say I am using WSBB until I followed a program out of the book, with the full conjugate method with chains, bands, waves, and assistance. I would say that if I used repeated effort (kind of have), dynamic effort (definitely do), and maximal effort (yes) that I use the conjugate method. And I have yet to work out the sordid details to have a full conjugate method program.

I think the steroid use is a moot point. If you use them, you get bigger, stronger, faster - faster. If you don't you need more recovery, so what. You can do anything with or without, it just needs to be stretched out over a longer period of time. If WSBB says that 'this method requires all of this work to be done within this amount of time', then steroids it is.

Also, I broke a rule - I went above the 50-60% wave. I read Rip's 'Practical Programming' and he described speed sets can be done 50-75% of 1RM. So I tried dead lifts at 65% of 1RM. I like it, it felt good, still fast, but a bit harder. 65% is still light but it's got some more meat to it, which means more muscle activation.
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