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Old 03-02-2011, 07:43 PM   #21
Dave Van Skike
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Big lulz...I would say reading Louie is the worst way to get an understanding of what Westside really is. ....but your "definition" probably works well enough.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:59 PM   #22
Júlíus G. Magnússon
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Originally Posted by Derek Weaver View Post
That's not the purpose of a WSBB approach. They max out every week, rotating movements to supposedly avoid nervous system burnout. If I'm missing something, correct me, but between the insane variety, large amount of assistance work etc, the average, drug free lifter isn't likely to sustain that.
That's what I'm saying... if you can't handle the volume, don't do that much volume. When you say "WSBB approach" I assume you're talking about the conjugate method, since Westside Barbell is a powerlifting club and not actually a program. In any case, the conjugate method consists of dynamic, maximum and repeated efforts. There's no minimum volume you have to do when you follow it.
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If I'm missing something, correct me, but between the insane variety, large amount of assistance work etc, the average, drug free lifter isn't likely to sustain that.
The "average, drug free lifter" isn't going to be doing the same amount of work. That doesn't mean he's not following the conjugate method. The "average, drug free lifter" is going to be doing the amount of volume he can handle and just that.

Does it work better and faster if you up the volume and start juicing? Fuck yeah. That's true with most programs. But that doesn't mean that everyone needs to be doing the same amount of work as a steroid using 1000lb squatter to be able to call it the conjugate method.

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Originally Posted by Cain Morano View Post
Also, I broke a rule - I went above the 50-60% wave. I read Rip's 'Practical Programming' and he described speed sets can be done 50-75% of 1RM. So I tried dead lifts at 65% of 1RM. I like it, it felt good, still fast, but a bit harder. 65% is still light but it's got some more meat to it, which means more muscle activation.
Unless you're working off your geared squat max, Louie has stated that you should use about 70-80% for your speed sets. As for speed deadlifts, according to Louie, they're usually done at about 75% of max for several singles.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:49 PM   #23
Emily Mattes
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Of course, I am actually doing assistance work as it was meant to be designed now and doing very little conditioning work.
I don't know if you can discount the effects of doing effective assistance work and cutting out metcons so easily. You may find if you switched back to a WS method you'd get similar gains just by applying this bit of sense to your programming.

I know raw, non-steroid-using lifters who follow WS and WS-inspired workouts and do extremely well with them. They deload as appropriate. I think nearly any program will work better with steroids, so to me arguing they're necessary to one program or another is kind of moot.
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:43 AM   #24
Tom Seryak
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I don't know if you can discount the effects of doing effective assistance work and cutting out metcons so easily. You may find if you switched back to a WS method you'd get similar gains just by applying this bit of sense to your programming.

I know raw, non-steroid-using lifters who follow WS and WS-inspired workouts and do extremely well with them. They deload as appropriate. I think nearly any program will work better with steroids, so to me arguing they're necessary to one program or another is kind of moot.
I completely agree. That is what I was trying to say. I think we are on the same page. What I meant to say was that I think that it is much more effective to perform supplemental/assistance work by itself rather than disguised as supplemental/assistance work as part of a metcon or whatever you want to call it.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:43 AM   #25
John P. Walsh
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Originally Posted by Júlíus G. Magnússon View Post
I don't see how the pharmacological assistance should be of any concern. Instead of "maxing out 52 weeks a year," take a deload week every 3-6 weeks if you're clean.

Well then you're not really maximizing on the protocol. Read what I wrote please.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:55 AM   #26
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Thanks for your resposnse john, and I appreciate all responses, but if you just make a point and don't back them up with further explanation then it's not very valid.

Please. Maybe I was too verbose. Westsiders lift geared and use restorative supplements. It’s not speculation it just is. They are very forth right about this. Simmons is a long time drug user and big advocate of assistance gear. I could care less either way but it’s important to understand who the target audience for Westside is. Chains, bands, boards and boxes are of limited use to raw lifters. These tools are meant to hit the weak spots when using gear. The volume of Westside precludes most clean lifters. I base this upon personal experience as well as many other raw drug free lifters that I come across.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:57 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
It's nearly impossible to get 3 or more people agreeing on what the "westside" method is let alone understanding whether what it "is" requires anabolics or not.

There is a general consensus that what we think of as "westside" includes one day a week of Max Effort work for the upper and lower body. These exercises are rotated with some regularity (anywhere between 1-6 weeks) and much focus is paid to accessory exercises that target a lifter's weaknesses. Add in either a day of speed work is or repetition work and you have the basis for what most people call "westside" . This "approach" (not program) is used successfully by many drug free powerlifters both geared and raw. whether or not you can call it "westside" is more controversial than whether or not it works.
Who are these drug free raw lifters that you speak of?
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:59 AM   #28
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IMO Westside is not the future of PL.
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Old 03-03-2011, 10:35 AM   #29
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Who are these drug free raw lifters that you speak of?
There are tons of people doing that split some successfully others not. As for me, I know several very well. Three people I can think of who I've trained with that use a westside template and have competed at Master's Worlds in the IPF. Two in gear, one raw. I've trained with at least 3 others who compete primarily in strongman with a little Raw PL who use a westside template as well. all compete in very strictly tested feds.

What people talk about as westside is just a way to arrange training throughout a cycle. As such, it works great for some not so much for others.


what goes on at westside barbell is westside, those guys are not raw nor drug free nor are they the future of PL. The future of PL is Raw or single ply i think, at least those are the classes that are growing like crazy and the methods that work really well for a lot of those

Raw lifters seem to use a broad range of approaches successfully: Max effort methods like 531, classic volume based progressions, crazy complex volume based progression like Shieko, good ole bodybuilding shit and the alternating blocks of vol and intensity like Mike Tuscherer has explained in his book. None of these are new and exciting and like westside templates, they work fine for some, not for others.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:16 PM   #30
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Tons? It reads like you know one drug free raw lifter that uses WSB. Whatever. I don't want to belabor the obvious. I hope raw is the future or PL. Drug free would be a pipe dream but I would settle for raw.
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