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Old 03-14-2007, 11:01 AM   #1
Rick Deckart
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Default 15 OHS with bodyweight---carry over...

Sorry for spamming the forum with my recent success story. But I thought some of you might be interested in the carry over I noticed. Well I have achieved one of my short term goals as already stated in two other threads:

A 15 rep OHS set with bodyweight on the bar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-MnX2ghWhY

It was not really difficult I must say. So is there a transfer of the OHS training to the deadlift, squat etc.?

Today I tried to figure out a sorta max for my deadlift. You can see the workout log entry here:

http://www.performancemenu.com/forum...=6401#post6401

I should have done this tomorrow, as this is a) a new PR and b) only 5.5kg shy of a double bodyweight deadlift. But here comes the catch---I haven't touched a weight heavier than 106kg in the last months and did not do a single deadlift since last Christmas.

I may test back and front squat in a couple of days, we will see.

I was starting to wonder if the 15 OHS with BW is really elite, as some lists of athletic feats imply. Frankly I don't think so. If somebody like me (in other words Joe Average but with some serious handicaps) can achieve this in 3--4 months, this feat cannot be elite, no way. Elite for me would mean that you need years of dedicated training to achieve the goal, not a couple of months and a bit of volume. And just to clarify Dan John never claimed this feat to be elite...
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:31 PM   #2
Steve Liberati
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That is pretty darn impressive Peter...looks very natural.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:45 PM   #3
Yael Grauer
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Congratulations!!

I've always been curious about whether the whole 95# OHS thing is elite, myself. I mean, not to downplay the strength/skill/effort involved (and coming from someone who can only OHS half her bodyweight), but it almost seems like a party trick. Good to know there is transfer though!
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:10 AM   #4
Rick Deckart
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Thanks. It took me 1535 overhead squats/76580 kg (only the work sets) during last December and 982 overhead squats/52412 kg plus ~1000 KB swings/~20000kg during the last three weeks to get there.

I will repeat this cycle end of the year and intend to target for a 15 reps OHS with 1.25BW (100kg) on the bar. I think that's perfectly doable and if that is gonna happen the target will be 120kg x 15 reps by the end of 2008...

But the next three weeks will be the BIG 21....
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Old 03-18-2007, 05:52 AM   #5
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Not sure if it is a party trick, but it is definitely not elite in the sense a double bodyweight OHS squat is or a 900---1000lbs deadlift. I think I agree with Dan John, it has more to do with toughness. I have no doubts that there are many true elite lifters who could do it with minimal training. The reason the don't did it so far is IMO that training for it would probably compromise their primary goals.

I posted this elsewhere but it is illuminating in this context. Some years ago there was a TV show in the german television where an 79year old fitness trainer tried to outsquat the then world champion Caruso. Who squats 50kg more often in 4min? Before they started this old guy mentioned to Caruso that what he would try now "...is poison to you, you always train low reps..." or something comparable.

Well this old guy did REALLY pretty good. He got around 100 reps if memory serves (at age 79!), but he had no chance against Caruso who won easily. Well Caruso looked much more drained afterwards and high rep is usually not what weightlifters do, but he could do it without a problem.
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Old 03-18-2007, 07:38 AM   #6
Pierre Auge
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Peter, I think you're missing the context of the argument!

15 BW overhead squats is Elite when you can do it without training for it, figure it out. Take the tests without training for the tests and see how you do! Hows your Fran, Grace, Isabel, Muscle-Ups, Linda, Kelly, JT, Annie, Helen, Barbara, Diane, Chelsea, Elizabeth right now?

You're missing the forest for the trees! We're not Professional Overhead Squatters. We're lifers, unknown stress and happenstance is our sport, train for that and you may one day be able to handle it... I'm less than impressed not with your physical feets but with your understanding of the issues at hand!

Yes OHS have transfer, every skill has transfer, so learn every skill you can, don't just stick to a few because thats what you're good at in the hopes that it will make you better at a bunch of others, thats where I disagree with some of the folks around here.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:51 AM   #7
-Ross Hunt
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Maybe not elite, but that's pretty tough... and you make it look easy.

If I could do that, I sure wouldn't have to be as accurate as I have to right now when I snatch. Did you have good upper body strength before you went into this? You seem to have a really high overhead squat:deadlift ratio...

BTW, if you want to make it even harder, try going ass to grass; you're hitting parallel nicely, and 15 reps with bodyweight to that depth is plenty impressive, but it's the six inches above rock bottom that are the real bitch in the snatch-grip overhead squat.
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Old 03-18-2007, 10:37 AM   #8
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Hi Ross,

believe it or not, but unfortunately I cannot go much deeper. Lack of squatting-flexibility in ankles, knees and hips (due to an trashed back from an accident when I was sixteen, which took its toll), but I am working on it. The back among other things is also the reason my deadlift is very modest.

My overhead strenght before starting training for this 'elite' feat was soso, could do a triple OHS with bodyweight which was DIFFICULT, meaning a max. I pressed the 40kg bell on several occasions for a single.

I check you log on P&B on occassion and based on your stats I would say that If you wanted to train for it you would certainly not need 3 months, as I did, to get it done. Your a stronger, much younger and much better lifter than I am.

Pierre, no offense but your a funny guy! Nobody does 15 OHS without some sort of OHS training, be it for max singles or strenght endurance or whatever. If your definition of elite (If I understood you correctly (maybe I am really confused) you have to be able to do it without training for it) were true, there were no elite lifters, runners etc around. Because all of the true elite feats require years of dedicated training and probably very special genetics, sort of one of a kind...

If this still isn't clear, I am an intermediate level (at best) lifter who may or may not switch to the advanced level this (or next) year---more likely not. I am relatively old (43) and started lifting around 3 and a half year ago. I have to do it on my own, unfortunately I have no coach.

15 OHS is nowhere near elite IMO, and neither makes training the OHS for three month make me a professional overhead squatter, nor do I intend to train the OHS exclusively for the rest of my life, hoping that it will do good for me. But I keep using what works for as long at it works which is in my opinion something reasonable to do.
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Old 03-18-2007, 12:39 PM   #9
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Peter,
you're completely missing the point. The only people who consider 15 BW OHS a worthwhile feet are CrossFitters. Why because to an olympic lifter it is not! Being both I may have a different perspective. The point is that it becomes a significant feet when you can accomplish the task without training specifically to achieve the task. This is where mixed mode varied training comes in to play. The reason CrossFit has its benchmarks is to tell them how their mixed mode training is developing.

If I did Fran 3 times per week for a few months I guarantee you I would have a sub 3:00 Fran. The point is not to do Fran to improve Fran. The point is to do Diane, Elizabeth, OHS, Grace, Isabel, Kelly, Nicole, Annie, Angie, and everyother possible workout and then do Fran to see how you match up to yourself previously.

You are taking your judgement of Elite out of context. You have to consider who and why said persons are suggesting elitism, which honestly I've never heard anyone call this feet elite but I like arguing none the less. Yes you're right that for someone who trains in a specific endeavor an Elite feet pushes the edges of genetic ability. But what about someone who trains simply to complete random tasks? Than Elite takes on a different meaning and that meaning is what I'm suggesting that you are not understanding.

Since you've been doing OHS check your Diane time... Thats the best test you can do for yourself! You're forgetting that life never throws Overhead Squats at you when you've been training them, life throws you deadlifts and right now your deadlifts need work. And in my humble opinion so do your overhead squats those wouldn't fly here.

Sorry thats just the way I see it.
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Old 03-18-2007, 12:58 PM   #10
Rick Deckart
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Pierre,

for example this list of athletic feats:

http://www.crossfitnorth.com/article...ill_Levels.pdf

look under elite athlete and OHS.

I am not into Crossfit, sorry. And I do not agree with your definition of elite either but lets agree to not agree.

The reason I posted this thread is that I thought some of those interested might be informed if and to what extent there is a transfer of the OHS to other skills. Not to imply that everybody should start OHS.

And frankly I don't think that my OHS or my deadlift needs much more work.

But I have a question to you, how many Crossfitters are there which haven't trained the OHS and can do the 15OHS and how many have trained for it and can do it, as you imply that Crossfitters are the only one interested in the feat? No agenda on my part, just curiosity.

Right now I am the only one I know who has done the 15OHS and I would like to know of at least another person. I am especially interested how he/she trained and if he/she experienced a similar transfer of strenght endurance on max strenght as I did. The increase in deadlift I experienced may be due to my low numbers in the deadlift but there is little research known to me which deals with the question of such a transfer...
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