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Old 08-12-2014, 03:55 AM   #1
Andre Holmberg
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Default Programming, theory questions

I have a couple of programming and theory questions about olympic lifting in general that I would like answered.

I read this article which got me interested in programming:

http://breakingmuscle.com/olympic-we...-olympic-lifts

So it basically said that Anatoli Chernyak, who was a weightlifting coach in russia in the late 70s, had made some statistics of weightlifters and found a good correlation between deadlift and squats and snatches and C&Js. Basically if you have this strength in the deadlift and squat, with good technique you can expect these results in the C&J and snatch. You get the point, or just read the article.

An oly lifter can according to Chernyak be expected to Snatch 64-66% of his squat or 38-42% of his DL, whichever is lower. And he can be expected to C&J 80-84% of his squat or 54-56% of his DL.

The optimal ratio for the snatch between DL and Squat would be 1.52-1.74.
The optimal ratio for the C&J between DL and Squat would be 1.43-1.56.
(i corrected the original which had flawed calculations in it but showed roughly the same ratios)

These are alot higher ratios than most powerlifters, especially elite ones, typically strive for. Powerlifters are, according to the article i linked, looking for a DL/Squat ratio of 1.25 and in my own experince this ratio moves towards 1.0 with increasing weight and level of the lifter.

Now powerlifters spend time deadlifting, squatting and benching, while Oly lifters spend time back squatting, front squating, overhead squatting and oly lifting, but rarely ever deadlifting (from what I understand). I guess one could say the deadlift or a version of it is part of both C&J and the snatch but at lower weight, more explosive and different stance and grip, so not specific to the deadlift. This leads to some questions:

1. With this much squatting and this little deadlifting, in comparison with the powerlifters, how can the ratio of DL/Squat be so high in weightlifters compared to powerlifters?

My next question is about a specific athlete and his stats: Hossein Rezazadeh, world record holder in the C&J and the total in the +105kg class

Career bests (stolen from wikipedia)
Snatch: 213 kg
Clean and Jerk: 263.5 kg
Total: 472.5 kg

If we use Chernak's statistic we see this:

His snatch required a squat of between 323-333kg and a DL of between 507-561kg
his C&J required a squat of between 314-329kg and a DL of between 471-488kg

In other words reasonable squats for and completely unreasonable DLs (world record is around 460kg).

At one point after his carreer Hossein Rezazadeh was thinking of trying his hand at powerlifting:

http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/9492

His coach gave his stats (2009)
859 pound squat (=390 kg)
837 pound deadlift (=380 kg)

These stats could possibly better than when he took the world records because he was most likely working for that powerlifting event prior to that.

2. What is the cause of this discrepancy? Are the statistics not viable for the heavyweights or are the deadlift requirements made by Chernak just plain wrong for all lifters?

Ty for any input. The point here is to overanalyze. Feel free to tell me how your stats in these 4 lifts correlate to the statistics Chernyak gathered.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:56 AM   #2
Daniel Villarreal
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To make a very quick point, you can’t compare what most weighlifters will consider an acceptable squat to what most powerlifters will consider an acceptable squat. Weightlifting: high-bar, ATG squat which you can get up with some speed, i.e. without any grind. Powerlifters: whatever you can get to parallel and back up, no matter how slow and painful. This will skew the ratio quite a bit.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:06 AM   #3
Andre Holmberg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Villarreal View Post
To make a very quick point, you canít compare what most weighlifters will consider an acceptable squat to what most powerlifters will consider an acceptable squat. Weightlifting: high-bar, ATG squat which you can get up with some speed, i.e. without any grind. Powerlifters: whatever you can get to parallel and back up, no matter how slow and painful. This will skew the ratio quite a bit.
That is a very good point. From the article I cannot read out which kind of squat Chernyak used in his formula. But that would definatley skew the ratio as long as the deadlift is not some snatch grip dead.

If you put an oly lifter to do a regular powerlifting low-bar squat down to parallel and get him to max on that he would still have a lot of benefit from his squat training with other ranges of motion, other bar positions and lifting tempos though.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:26 AM   #4
Blake Barnes
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I don't like to get caught up in ratios just because of this reason. They are used as a reference to make it easy to find a weakness, whether it be strength-related or technique-related. There are always going to be people who are way outside of the range and it's almost unexplainable. Plus different the amount of DLing in a Weightlifting program is going to depend on who's writing the program. Obviously Weghtlifters aren't taking as much time working on the traditional DL - like sumo style, rack DLs, bands/chains, and whatever other variations they do. Yet they are baiscally DLing everytime they do a Clean so that movement isn't that foreign to them. Rezazadeh is a massive individual and I feel like any kind of strength sport he does he's just going to dominate.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:36 AM   #5
Blake Barnes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Holmberg View Post

If you put an oly lifter to do a regular powerlifting low-bar squat down to parallel and get him to max on that he would still have a lot of benefit from his squat training with other ranges of motion, other bar positions and lifting tempos though.
I've seen first hand on several occasions where low-bar back squatting has a direct, negative effect on Olympic Weightlifters. Weightlifters don't need to train any other ranges of motion besides full ranges of motion. Putting the bar low on the back so that there's a slight torso flexion does not help them either. Experimenting with any other bar position other than high on the torso creates improper mechanics for Weightlifting. And I don't even know what you mean by lifting tempos and how it would be beneficial to Weightlifting.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:55 AM
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:38 AM   #6
Andre Holmberg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Barnes View Post
I've seen first hand on several occasions where low-bar back squatting has a direct, negative effect on Olympic Weightlifters. Weightlifters don't need to train any other ranges of motion besides full ranges of motion. Putting the bar low on the back so that there's a slight torso flexion does not help them either. Experimenting with any other bar position other than high on the torso creates improper mechanics for Weightlifting. And I don't even know what you mean by lifting tempos and how it would be beneficial to Weightlifting.
Ohh sorry for not making myself clear. What I meant was that even though the Oly lifter might do many of his squat variations differently than what is optimal for training to get a high maxed out powerlifting squat, he would still get benefit from this slightly non-specific squat training in such an event. What I mean with varied lifting tempos is that powerlifters tend to work more towards maxing the weight they can press out while Oly lifters tend to do more explosive work in the squat.

But anyway I think my question has been answered, and I thank you both for your inputs.

Cheers
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