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Old 03-31-2007, 02:43 PM   #11
Elliot Royce
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Greg:

Good advice. I talked to my coach, Gary Valentine, today at length and his view is we need to work on some basic roadblocks -- some related to techniques and some related to strength. So I guess what I saw as complexity is actually just focusing on what hinders me, whether it's strength or technique.

The prescription is

front squats - as heavy as possible while still maintaining full depth -- weakness here limits my ability to squat under the bar

overhead squats - light weights just to get flexibility, any progress here will help with snatches

hang cleans & jerks - pulls are good and strong (120kg+ pulls vs. 70kg squat cleans), need to work on getting under the bar, jerks are good on technique but missing in strength so some rack jerks as well

So the modified template is, when I'm not in a gym where I can drop the weights:

Workout A:
Back squat 3 warmup, 3 work
Jerks: 2 warmup, 3 work
Hang clean: triples for as much time as I have

Workout B:
Front squat: 3 warmup, 3 work
OHS: 3-5 sets of 5 at light weight
Pull: 2-3 warmup, 3 work
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:49 AM   #12
John Alston
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John:

Thanks for your comments. I'm not sure I agree that a squat clean is more taxing than a power clean. Are you arguing that it's possible to power clean more than a squat clean?
With good technique and no phsyical issues, your full clean should of course be more weight. BUt if you mean "more often" than I think one can do more power cleans than squat cleans.

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Originally Posted by Elliot Royce View Post
Again, on your point about subbing the C&J, I'm not looking to exactly replicate the motion but rather to achieve the same effect of Starting Strength (building mass/strength) while working on the technical side of the O lifts.

As for goals, good question! Build strength/mass, improve athletic performance, learn the O lifts as a sport (in no particular order).
Right, a little different from my goals, where right now I am trying to develop my strength and general traits through focusing on the olympic lifts.
Sounds like you are getting good training if you are working with Gary Valentine. I'd listen to him!
Are you going to come on down to the meet at LBH in two weeks?
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:09 PM   #13
Elliot Royce
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Gary is great. I wish more people could come to his gym in the foothills of Wilton. He does actually have a guy who travels down from Vermont.

I will have to miss the meet due to travels but I hope to be there in August. I'm afraid that work life prevents me from maximizing my O lifting potential (but does pay the bills). I'm waiting to make my move for the 80 year old Masters' title -- I've got another 35 years to train.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:57 AM   #14
Peter Haas
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I ran into this sort of question when I decided to switch from metcons to primarily focusing on strength/O-lifting. I really wanted to increase my strength and proficiency at O-lifts. I decided that primarily focusing on strength while developing my technique couldn't hurt.

I decided to go ahead with Rippeotoe's advanced beginner program as outlined in Practical Programming. I lifted with that Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and did Snatches and assistance exercises on Saturday. I've been making steady progress on that for the last 2 months, going up about 5-10lbs on my back squat per week.

Since I have been making steady progress, I've decided to mainly focus on this strength program until I reach the Advanced lifting levels that Rippetoe outlines. I still do a little O-lifting on Saturdays if I have the time, but my main focus is on strength right now. I like it because it is a simple program and I am seeing week to week improvements. Part of me can't believe I'm still making progress with simple linear periodization at the weights I am lifting, so I want to keep riding it out. When I hit advanced, I am going to switch to emphasis on O-lifting and metcons.

When I do O-lifting now, I feel like my limiting factor is skill and technique, not that I am weak. I'm happy with that for right now.
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Old 04-05-2007, 10:16 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Peter Haas View Post
I ran into this sort of question when I decided to switch from metcons to primarily focusing on strength/O-lifting. I really wanted to increase my strength and proficiency at O-lifts. I decided that primarily focusing on strength while developing my technique couldn't hurt.

I decided to go ahead with Rippeotoe's advanced beginner program as outlined in Practical Programming. I lifted with that Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and did Snatches and assistance exercises on Saturday. I've been making steady progress on that for the last 2 months, going up about 5-10lbs on my back squat per week.

Since I have been making steady progress, I've decided to mainly focus on this strength program until I reach the Advanced lifting levels that Rippetoe outlines. I still do a little O-lifting on Saturdays if I have the time, but my main focus is on strength right now. I like it because it is a simple program and I am seeing week to week improvements. Part of me can't believe I'm still making progress with simple linear periodization at the weights I am lifting, so I want to keep riding it out. When I hit advanced, I am going to switch to emphasis on O-lifting and metcons.

When I do O-lifting now, I feel like my limiting factor is skill and technique, not that I am weak. I'm happy with that for right now.
Peter-

I just had a good P private message exchange with Pierre on this topic. The simple linear periodization REALLY works and is foundational. It will provide the greatest gains of ones life based in part on the efficacy and in part on a deeper pool of strength potential to draw from. Conjugate methods, wave loading, ladders and the like are awesome and will squeak more % out of the top end but your run may go for quite some time. I worked up to a 565 SQT & DL on simple linear periodization, it works.
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:12 AM   #16
Dave Van Skike
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I worked up to a 565 SQT & DL on simple linear periodization, it works.

Ummm.....You are strong.

Awesome thread. Beyond the usual response to such questions (What is your goal and how will you know when you have reached it) I too have struggled with the same sort of mixed goal to develop a solid base of strength. I propose to measure my progress in that goal this with a mix of lifts that include a some Oly lifts. In approaching this goal, I realized very quickly that for me, it was not efficient to try to increase my numbers in the Oly lifts and the squat and deadlift at the same time. In fact, once I realized this, it was a relief to drop the Oly lifting and most supplemental work in favor of a periodization plan from Practical Programming that focuses, (oddly enough) on the basic lifts that comprise the x-fit total.

I think a good argument can be made that it if you wanted to be truly mega strong it would be better to start with the Oly lifts with light weight until you are proficient and then proceed to supplement weight in those lifts while adding in heavy squats pulls and presses. But if you are just getting started or starting over with new knees or hips or whatever, I think it makes sense to get all around strong and then work on technique focused lifts later. I know for me, this guarantees that I will have a tougher time learning to not muscle the weight but that's why you pay a coach to slap you around.
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:37 AM   #17
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Interesting that people don't seem to be satisfied using the classic lifts as their primary strength building tool. I wonder why this is.
Is it because the quick lifts are too leg dominant? Is it the simultaneous strength and power demands of them? I wonder.
I guess there are areas that the classic lifts don't emphasize, but for my money, the lifts and the accessories - pulls, squats, presses, OHS, deadlifts, and their variations offer a good full body strengthening. Plus, they are super fun to do.
I am still enjoying the high from two PR's last night (81kg snatch and 97.5 C&J) so it might be influencing my thoughts, but why anyone wouldn't want to fling the heaviest possible weight over their head I can't imagine!
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:08 PM   #18
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I think this is becuase until you have some proficiency in the classic lifts, you are going aren't going to build strength as fast as you will learnign the basic deadlfit, sqaut and press.

I'm sure if I had a dedicated time slot to work with a coach, adn a set of bumpers, over time, I could get jsut as strong doing the classic lifts. I don't have time for that now... but I do have access to a bar and whole bunch of plates, ergo the basics...squat, press, deadlift and variants thereof.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
I think this is becuase until you have some proficiency in the classic lifts, you are going aren't going to build strength as fast as you will learnign the basic deadlfit, sqaut and press.

I'm sure if I had a dedicated time slot to work with a coach, adn a set of bumpers, over time, I could get jsut as strong doing the classic lifts. I don't have time for that now... but I do have access to a bar and whole bunch of plates, ergo the basics...squat, press, deadlift and variants thereof.
Dave-
Totally legit. If you want to incorporate some speed work ala-WSBB and the conjugate method a day of box jumps, plyo push ups and clapping pull-ups will do it. Nothing missed there and plenty fun.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:32 PM   #20
John Alston
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Dave
Good points. I think I might have missed some of this because I started the lifts with a coach. And being relatively untrained, playing with only 40kg all night was enough to stimulate some development for me (though there was plenty of assistance work, too).
I do think that a workout with still very light classic lifts as the bulk and then heavier work in the assistance exercises can be successful.
But I think I forget that people actually try to learn the quick lifts on their own. It seems a daunting task.
Silly me. And props to people who develop good lifts w/out regular coaching.
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Last edited by John Alston : 04-05-2007 at 01:33 PM. Reason: to be better
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