Starting Strength vs. O Lifts

Elliot Royce · 03-30-2007, 10:07 AM

When in the gym, I've been doing a hybrid program of O lifts and their assistance lifts (trap pulls, pulls from the floor) plus Starting Strength when I need to fill in. I've been making progress over the past 3 months with my front squat getting up to 80kg from basically nothing. Similarly, my back squat has gone from something like 120lbs to 205lbs for 5 reps. On the power clean, it's gone from 50kg to 90kg.

However, I feel like my life is overcomplicated. My training log is filled with multiple lifts and variants (front squat, back squat, trap bar deadlift, RDLs, squat cleans, cleans & jerks, shoulder press, push press, rack jerks, hang clean, bench press).

I'm wondering whether to just do the Starting Strength rotation and sub in the full O lift as appropriate. So, sub front squat for back squat one day. Sub squat clean for power clean or sub clean & jerk for both power clean and shoulder press. Or sub push press or jerk for shoulder press.

There is something about the simplicity of the SS program that appeals. I think progress is much more measurable. Since I am not a pro O lifter, I would think that this should lay the foundation pretty well. I would still do 2 hours per week with a coach to train the O lifts.

Thoughts?

Derek Simonds · 03-30-2007, 10:26 AM

For the last year I have been doing basically the same thing.

I started the mass gain plan outlined in the PM and have been trying diligently to follow the lifting template. It is an O lift program and the only modification I have done so far is include bench 1 day and incline 1 day. I still am not 100% on the lifting template but I like it and it has simplified my life substantially.

My biggest problem is that I get into an overtrained state by doing too much. I like the weights, reps and exercises outlined and I don't feel like I am over reaching.

I look forward to reading additional responses

John Alston · 03-30-2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliot Royce

I'm wondering whether to just do the Starting Strength rotation and sub in the full O lift as appropriate. So, sub front squat for back squat one day. Sub squat clean for power clean or sub clean & jerk for both power clean and shoulder press. Or sub push press or jerk for shoulder press.

Thoughts?

It sounds like you are trying to do a couple things at once.
Some of your substitutions I find questionable.

The squat clean is significantly more taxing than a power clean.

Subbing the full C&J for power clean and press isn't a great fit b/c the jerk is as much a leg exercise while the press is essentially no leg.

I dunno about SS much, and I am wondering about your plan. Have you just tried a structured OLY program with assists for your goals? Not really sure what your goals are. Is strength in general the goal with oly as one element or is it more oly focused? Sounds like a mix. Mixing can be tricky, esp when there is a plan so structured as SS.

Elliot Royce · 03-30-2007, 11:59 AM

Derek:

I checked out the template. I didn't realize the second tab had O lifts (the first tab is pretty basic). I'm going to look into it more. Something consistent and progressive would work well.

John:

Thanks for your comments. I'm not sure I agree that a squat clean is more taxing than a power clean. Are you arguing that it's possible to power clean more than a squat clean? I do find a squat clean harder to learn but I've assumed that's just me. In any event, can't I just adjust for difficulty by varying the weight?

Again, on your point about subbing the C&J, I'm not looking to exactly replicate the motion but rather to achieve the same effect of Starting Strength (building mass/strength) while working on the technical side of the O lifts.

As for goals, good question! Build strength/mass, improve athletic performance, learn the O lifts as a sport (in no particular order).

John Seiler · 03-30-2007, 12:09 PM

Elliot,

Your power clean is 10kg higher than your front squat?

Elliot Royce · 03-30-2007, 01:01 PM

I know, weird. But I do have two artificial hips and have been rebuilding since then. My coach has me working the front squat to get more comfortable jumping down. I figure I should be able to get up to 120-130kg on a squat clean if I can only learn to squat that much.

John Seiler · 03-31-2007, 10:47 AM

Ah. That would explain it. I like to idea of simplification. Unless you have a LOT of time to spend (like an Olympic-caliber athlete), it's pretty hard to work at all those things. It seems wiser to focus real-life limited resources on improving a few basic lifts.

Bill Ripley · 03-31-2007, 10:53 AM

"I checked out the template. I didn't realize the second tab had O lifts (the first tab is pretty basic). I'm going to look into it more. Something consistent and progressive would work well."

Can someone tell me where to find this template?

Greg Everett · 03-31-2007, 11:59 AM

Bill -

template and full article are in PM issue 17. At the top of the mass gain forum is a sticky thread with an excel doc containing all the lifts: http://www.performancemenu.com/forum...read.php?t=478

Elliot -

I think what you do really just depends on what is a priority for you at this point--do you want to lift as much weight as possible as soon as possible, or would you prefer becoming technically proficient in the snatch and clean & jerk? I among others will argue you can't genuinely do both at the same time--you can preserve and slowly improve one while focusing on the other.

So if you feel your technique is adequate and your lifts are being held back primarily if not entirely due to inadquate strength, spend a cycle or two really focusing on squat, deadlift, press, push press while training the lifts maybe 2-3 times/week at 60-75% or so just to keep the motor patterns sharp.

Bill Ripley · 03-31-2007, 01:20 PM

thanks