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Old 04-28-2007, 04:37 PM   #11
Ron Nelson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
Won't taking fish oil when fasting/empty stomach part of the day tell the body to use the fat as a fuel source rather than inflammation control? I take mine at night with dinner.
I had read that as well and have started taking it after I break the fast.
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Old 04-28-2007, 05:10 PM   #12
Jeremy Shepard
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Yeah, I don't think I'd supplement n-3 FAs during the fast, unless I had increased my intake and was taking them with a meal, also. The metabolism of them is going to be affected by caloric and fat levels, anyway. I might could see some metabolic advantage to doubling intake and taking one serving during the fast, though. At least until body comp was respectable. This, of course, is all theoretical at this point, though.

I guess I'll play around with it. For example, I like a B complex in the mornings, or if I needed some tyrosine before workouts, etc.
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Old 04-29-2007, 05:18 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
Coffee and tea may still have a couple calories (I do both of mine with absolutely nothing added other than a few spices, mostly clove/nutmeg/cinnamon), and I'd much rather have those than artificially sweetened drinks...I am after health, after all.
Ah the classic natural vs. unnatural chimera . Please don't take offense Garrett, but you'd seriously rather break your fast with a psychoactive addictive drug rather than not breaking it with a chemical (don't forget all food is 'chemicals' that many decades of well designed research (plenty of testimonial scuttlebutt to the contrary, but no actual research on humans) has repeatedly shown to be completely safe as a human foodstuff, simply because the drug is 'natural' ? I'm pretty sure both tea and coffee are a very recent addition to the human diet.
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Old 04-29-2007, 09:26 AM   #14
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Stuart,
Regarding coffee and herbal teas (I don't do black tea x/c at restaurants).

God, Nature, or some higher power put the caffeine, along with many other complicated synergistic compounds, in coffee. I don't consider it a "drug", in the isolated, purified sense. Coffee is different from isolated caffeine much as the vitamin C complex in fruit is very different from ascorbic acid. I do consider artificial sweeteners and ascorbic acid drugs in their own way, and I only utilize them in specific situations, if at all.

Man has created artificial sweeteners, for many reasons, most of which I don't agree with.

I know who I trust more, in terms of creating healthy foods. I also know who has a better track record and doesn't care about the financial gain involved.

Coffee and teas are relatively recent additions to the human diet. So are water filtering processes that are taking all of the minerals out of the drinking water. I don't think that drinking nearly mineral-free water is good for hydration, so I drink things that have minerals added back in, such as herbal tea.

I'm not really going to pursue an argument, debate, or discussion over artificial sweeteners. It's been done before, believe what you wish. I'll pass on consuming things that blatantly have "artificial" in the name, thank you very much.
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Old 04-29-2007, 04:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post

I know who I trust more, in terms of creating healthy foods. I also know who has a better track record and doesn't care about the financial gain involved.
This is what I find so fascinating about the 'natural' thing. Humans have been selectively breeding fruit and vegetables for sugar and starch for thousands of years, for (among other things) financial gain, so most available varieties bear little resemblance to the vegetable foods we spent the bulk of the Paleolithic consuming, yet people still try to argue that they are 'natural', and therefore by definition, healthy

Quote:
Coffee and teas are relatively recent additions to the human diet. So are water filtering processes that are taking all of the minerals out of the drinking water. I don't think that drinking nearly mineral-free water is good for hydration, so I drink things that have minerals added back in, such as herbal tea.
I agree.


Quote:
I'm not really going to pursue an argument, debate, or discussion over artificial sweeteners. It's been done before, believe what you wish. I'll passon consuming things that blatantly have "artificial" in the name, thank you very much.
Fair enough.
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Old 04-29-2007, 05:05 PM   #16
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Stuart,
I was thinking further about my dislike of artificial sweeters in particular and how that came about.

*I* am one of those testimonial, anecdotal scuttlebutts. After a history of using protein powders and making homemade "7UP" with aspartame as a teenager, I finally figured out that this "safe" sweetener was the cause of my short incapacitating headaches. The first "food intolerance" I ever identified in myself was this "safe" sweetener. Strike one.

Next, when I've been suggesting that patients stop using artificial sweeteners, several have said they've already stopped. Why? Because they had exactly the same symptom I did! Strike two.

Last, I had a patient come in and tell me she had a benign tumor on her pituitary. Come to find out, when I suggest she avoid artificial sweeteners, that she has a significant history of consuming 30 packets of Equal (aspartame) A DAY!!! She then tells me that she's reduced her intake significantly--down to several glasses of tea a day that each contain 2 packets of aspartame and one packet of sucralose. Wow...that's sweet tea! My only major suggestion to this woman, after spending two hours with her, was to reduce and eliminate the artificial sweeteners from her diet. She is now feeling quite a bit better and has gained more trust in my advice, even starting to reduce wheat. Talk about a drug effect, this woman was telling me that the stevia I provided her wasn't sweet enough. Seriously. Think her sense of taste was being affected? Strike three.

Black box results tells me that myself and some of my patients feel bad when they consume aspartame, and another one possibly developed a "brain" tumor from it AND she feels better when she doesn't consume it. Do I need more evidence on this particular subject? Should I wait for the corporations to do an honest study on their product? Should I assume that something drastically different happened during the Splenda/sucralose studies and approval process? I say NO.

Artificial sweeteners do not add nutrition to the diet. There is a significant possibility (not a possibility in my book) that they may cause neurotoxicity. IMO, there should be NO DOUBT AT ALL whether something is safe for consumption when we're talking about food.

You may not believe me or the multitude of people who state that they have witnessed these artificial sweeteners causing harm to them or their loved ones. Maybe you will. Bottom line, I don't trust the FDA or their approval process for "drugs" to put into foods, or anywhere else for that matter.

That's my deal on artificial sweeteners.
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Last edited by Garrett Smith : 04-29-2007 at 05:06 PM. Reason: to make it sweeter...
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Old 04-29-2007, 06:21 PM   #17
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Agreed, artificial sweetners are junk. Ever since I switched over to stevia (used moderately), headaches and stomach pains and gas are a thing of the past. Then again, too much of anything (including water) can be bad for you. Only drank 2-3 glasses of diet cola (and patrone) last night at a wedding party last night and what do you know...I've been fighting a headache all day long.
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Old 04-29-2007, 08:41 PM   #18
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Well you asked for it. Yeah I like to use the black box approach myself when there is no metabolic ward clinical research to go by. I must admit I've never used aspartame, nor could I ever I waste money on the heroically overpriced diet sodas which contain it. Besides aspartame is not a very stable molecule. It degrades readily in heat and over time. IMHO a complete waste of money.

So I have no informed opinion on it, although Mike Eades perspective on it seems pretty reasonable. He notes that there have been convincing studies done recently questioning its safety.

Not so either sucralose, saccharin, cyclamate, and acesulfame-K. I have personally used all four, in combination and separately, in moderation, every day for the past nearly five years following a VLC dietary approach, and not only have I never had any adverse effects, but my health and performance have continued to steadily improve. The last seventh months adding IF to the VLC has turned the improvement in new and interesting directions, but the AI use has never faltered. Much less give me any reason to doubt their safety. The only problem I have with stevia use is that in its refined form its toxicity is a serious concern. Not to mention that it is well documented to exert a direct stimulatory effect on pancreatic islet cells, regardless of dietary signals. Then there is the taste..... .

The interesting thing about people whingeing about the safety or otherwise of AI's is that I think it distracts us from the more important issue of paying attention to the macronutrient ratio which evolution best equipped humans for. Avoiding 'unnatural' sweeteners in the quest for health, but then continuing to indulge in (for instance) sweet fruit, even in so called moderation, because they are 'natural' is IMHO, pretty misguided.

Now, just so there's no confusion, let me point out that I am no carnivorous anti vegetation zealot. I eat copious quantities of green leafy vegetables every day, and a handful of berries most days, and when I can obtain actual wild berries (only mildly sweet, even though even these have probably cross pollinated with modern commercial super sweet varieties too ) I reflect on what the damage the human evolutionary proclivity for sweet and carbs in general (in combination with human ingenuity) has done to the health of this species.

So for every testimonial scuttlebutter such as yourself Garrett, bear in mind that there are probably several hundred who consume AI's (except aspartame - putting sucralose in the same boat as aspartame is about as silly as putting erythritol in the same boat as HFCS ) regularly, with no adverse effects whatsoever. And hopefully your naturopathic process has clearly demonstrated to you the damage metabolic syndrome wreaks on human health, even when caused by the so called 'healthy' 'natural' foods like sweet fruit , starchy vegetables, and whole grains.
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Old 04-30-2007, 04:40 AM   #19
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I believe it is the long term effects from prolonged use of artificial sweetners that pose the greatest health concerns.
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Old 04-30-2007, 05:45 AM   #20
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A lot of good points come up in these kinds of discussion.

Stuart's comments in contrast to Garrett's comments provide an interesting contrast. I am generally not real keen on naturopathic doctors, since in many states you can declare yourself a naturapath with very little real training. I know Garrett's ND isn't something like that, but that's always something to consider. As a naturopath, also, his viewpoint is distinctly skewed...this isn't bad though, because multiple viewpoints and diversity really are the best way to learn and discuss matters. Stuart's comments occasionally run into the whole question of whether or not any particular study is any good or not. I've just found that so many scientific papers are so much crap, due to experimental design, the statistical analysis behind them, or even just the subject selection process. His viewpoint of a long time VLC practicioner has great value.

There are two distinct endpoints, with the "Everything is going to kill you" camp, to "Just eat it", with room for everyone in between.

Artificial sweetners are tricky. I do know folks who do not do well on aspartame. My wife feels a bit ill after drinking diet soda, for example. I am not one of them, and seem to tolerate them well. The question that should be asked is "Is sugar worse than aspartame?" After all, we have evolved to deal with sugars in our diet. Not in the huge amounts people eat today, but the body can deal with a bit of sugar.

Same with nightshades: If I noticed a problem upon consuming peppers and tomatoes, then I'd seriously consider curtailing their intake. Kelly Baggett (whom suffers from some kind of autoimmune problem) was really the first guy whom pointed me in that direction, shortly followed with Garrett's own suggestions regarding them.

I've suggested to my brother, who suffers from gout, to consider eliminating certain things from his diet. One of the things I suggested was that he start limiting the nightshades. I don't know if he's tried it or not, since that topic hasn't come up in our conversations lately. He was doing well until he severed the tip of his ring finger in a freak blacksmithy accident a few weeks ago.

But, wow, when you start cutting away the junk in the diet, and then start hacking away at the nightshades, things start looking pretty grim.

Regarding the topic starting this thread:

I really have started to not supplement anything while fasting, and have started to reduce the cream in my coffee, as well.

So, for me it looks like:

Water with ACV upon rising.
Coffee with a bit of half and half and cinammon shortly afterwards
Following that, it's water or yerba mate or some fresh iced green tea.

Break fast: Take supps.

Generally I take it easy on the mate unless I decide not to drink coffee for the day, since I noticed that too much of any of that stuff effects my sleep. Mate's effects become much more pronounced when IFing.
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