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Old 02-18-2010, 10:27 AM   #11
Scott Kustes
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Of course he does and of course it will. Training for the 100 and 200 are vastly different from training for the 400m and are wholly different races, neither of which brings about much of a buildup in lactate. He'll need 1-2 years to knock 2.1 seconds off his PR (45.28 vs. 43.18 WR) and that's only if he dedicates himself to training the 400m.

He's commented before that 400m training is painful and he's not keen on doing what's necessary to run that race. I can tell you that training for the short sprints is nowhere near as exhausting, both mentally and physically, as what's required to be competitive in the 400m. As fast as 45.28 is in the 400m, that only lands him 8th place in the 2008 Olympics.
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Old 02-18-2010, 05:21 PM   #12
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Very little aerobic base needed for the 400, relatively speaking. He needs to build up a serious anaerobic base though and the ability to tolerate crushing levels of lactate and acidity that aren't present in the 100 and 200.
Considering that 400m for men is 60% anaerobic 40% aerobic.. you do need some aerobic base.

Have you read Clyde Hart's stuff on training slower to run faster?

Definitely need higher lactate threshold. High lactate threshold is buffered by more mitochondria which is built from aerobic work.

Basically, it's all painful stuff. Mix of anaerobic/aerobic work that he needs to do...
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:13 AM   #13
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100&200's are fun. 400's and 800's are painful. Going into them I knew that there was a very likely chance that passing out or puking my guts was highly likely at the end of the race if I ran my best.
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Old 02-19-2010, 06:15 AM   #14
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I think between the 250 and 400m mark when I raced, I always felt like I was going to cry it was so sucky.
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:04 AM   #15
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Steven, Where'd you get that number of 60/40? Cause I've seen data showing anywhere from ~85/15 (an/aer) to 40/60. The funny thing...the slower the 400 is run, the more aerobic it is. At the <45 second range (where WRs will be broken), the anaerobic system is contributing >70% of the energy. Link The faster you run, the more anaerobic energy is used. Of course, this will depend somewhat on the runner, but the bottom line is that the anaerobic system is the dominant one, especially for this caliber of 400m sprinter.

High-speed running performance is largely unaffected by hypoxic reductions in aerobic power
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Despite reductions in the aerobic energy available for sprinting under hypoxic conditions, our subjects were able to run just as fast for sprints of up to 60 s and nearly as fast for sprints of up to 120 s. This was possible because rates of anaerobic energy release, estimated from oxygen deficits, increased by as much as 18%, and thus compensated for the reductions in aerobic power. We conclude that maximal metabolic power outputs during sprinting are not limited by rates of anaerobic metabolism and that human speed is largely independent of aerobic power during all-out runs of 60 s or less.
Lots of coaches have different methods of getting results...Clyde Hart, Barry Ross, Charlie Francis...all have their own ways and they all work. From what I've seen, work to increase the aerobic endurance is intended to provide better recovery in training sessions as opposed to for in-race aerobic endurance. For a 400, the aerobic system can be trained pretty much exclusively through intensive/extensive tempo...there's little need for over-distance running.

Edit: I may, in fact, be misinterpreting what you're saying regarding how the relative contribution of the aerobic system relates to actual training methodology.

Brian, that's about right. A friend made the comment last year, "Man, halfway through the second turn, you looked like you were hating life." Yep...that's about the only way to properly run a 400. That's the point where your body goes "Hey, wait a minute...just WTF do you think you're doing?"
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:58 AM   #16
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Racing and training 400s are the most brutal things in the world, no CF workout compares to it.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:14 PM   #17
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Here's one:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00002/art00010

There's a couple more somewhere or other that I have somewhere.

The reason I'm a bit skeptical of the Weyand study you posted is because metabolically increased amounts of mitochondria contribute significantly to acid buffering which helps increase not only VO2max but also lactate threshold when trained correctly.

I'm going to reread it again to see if I get anymore out of it though. We'll see.
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Old 02-20-2010, 05:47 AM   #18
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I think he's probably going to beat the record by 3 seconds or so, eventually. Bolt is gradually moving up to the endurance realm and is going to show the world that speed triumphs.
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:53 AM   #19
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Here's one:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00002/art00010

There's a couple more somewhere or other that I have somewhere.

The reason I'm a bit skeptical of the Weyand study you posted is because metabolically increased amounts of mitochondria contribute significantly to acid buffering which helps increase not only VO2max but also lactate threshold when trained correctly.

I'm going to reread it again to see if I get anymore out of it though. We'll see.
Okay, we can quote studies all day long. The pertinent question...what does all of that means in regards to actually building a training plan? How does one take a great short sprinter and take him/her from a good 400m runner to a great one?
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Old 02-20-2010, 09:51 AM   #20
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Okay, we can quote studies all day long. The pertinent question...what does all of that means in regards to actually building a training plan? How does one take a great short sprinter and take him/her from a good 400m runner to a great one?
From all that I've read I came to three conclusions:

1. Significant amounts of pure sprinting/heavy lifting/plyo
2. anaerobic intervals aimed at lactate threshold
3. Some form of aerobic work such as Clyde Hart's "slow 200m intervals" building up to faster ones over the season.

Speed/strength/plyo obviously is paramount, and most people use intervals.... but considering that 400/800 is basically a hybrid of sprint/endurance and there is a significant "aerobic" component there must be some sort of aerobic work stashed in there (and anaerobic intervals do not necessarily count as such).

I haven't really kept up with current 400/800m runners in a bit, but it seems like most of them are lacking the speed reverse (aka they need to work on getting faster).

Bolt is obviously coming from the opposite perspective, so he needs to build up lac threshold and aerobic base some then he will dominant because he has such as huge speed reserve.

That's my take at least... I dunno maybe you have a different approach?
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