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Old 05-23-2010, 05:35 PM   #21
Dave Van Skike
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even just a moustache is 100% win.
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:03 PM   #22
Alex Bond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Shafley View Post
POD:

Your goals of mastering gymnastics BWEs and other movements and getting up to a 230# lean bodyweight are at odds with each other.

Somethings got to give. Either the gymnastics stuff or the weight.

Not only that, but there's a vague theory that's been tossed around by some folks that what you do with your body has a direct impact on how it adapts. Gymnastics based BWE training sends a distinct message that lighter = more successful. This is also why running seems so good for stripping off weight, both fat and muscle, the body doesn't want to keep the extra tissue around.

In addition, 6'1" and 230# lean. should be re-evaluated. That is the size of John Grimek, and pushing the envelop on genetic, drug-free muscular bodymass. Casey Butts has some interesting stuff on that topic.
100% truth right here. Getting better at gymnastics and getting bigger are pretty much mutually exclusive. I would say stay the size you are for now and do your gymnastics club while you have the opportunity, then bulk up when you have graduated and can do it right, by squatting 3 times a week.
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Old 05-23-2010, 10:58 PM   #23
Patrick Donnelly
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Ok, so there's a lot of stuff to respond to, and my draft of this post ended up being way to long, so let me try to condense it one more time...

1. Regarding my reasons for gaining weight: Yes, generally speaking, the heavier you are, the harder gymnastics type stuff is. However, how would putting a few more pounds of muscle directly on my lats and shoulders make a front lever harder? That's basically what I'm trying to do, and it's why I'm laying off doing much leg work, like squats, etc. I realize that the dearth (though not total lack of) lower body movements might make gaining happen a bit more slowly, but if it makes it more directed where I want, that's fine. I'm just confused by the total stop in weight gain, in spite of the gallon of milk.

As a side note, over the past few years, I've taken a handful of circumference measurements a few times, just for curiosity's sake. As I went up from 180bs to 210lbs, my arm measurement increased from roughly 15" to 15.5". I don't know if that's normal, but for a 30lb gain, it doesn't seem to be. Since continuing with more BWE based work staying at 210lbs, then jumping up to 220lbs, that's gone up to 16". I'm in no way relating size to strength, but you can't say that more size doesn't at least give more potential for strength, and in that case, laying off the leg work hasn't negatively impacted my potential for upperbody BWE strength. (Coincidentally, it hasn't even negatively impacted my mediocre lower body lift strength.)

2. Regarding bodyfat goals. I realize that putting specific numbers on bodyfat percentages is kind of silly, since you really can't measure it accurately, and even if you could, it wouldn't matter, but I find it helps label the generalities. Right now, I'd guesstimate I'm at 220lbs/15% (not low-balling the estimate for my ego's sake). My end goal would be something like 230lbs/10%. So, yeah, that's about 20lbs of LBM. I don't have to do that all this summer by any means, though I'd like to get as far as possible (who doesn't like making progress?), and the stalling of the scale doesn't really show that happening.

I've always been under the impression that 230lbs/10% was a reasonable limit for a guy of my height. I'm not sure where I got that impression, but as Dave said, it seems to be right around there where you start turning down the road to lard-ass. I'm not shooting for 230lbs/6%, since that's rapidly moving several steps away from the potential of the average, dedicated Joe, but 230lbs/10% doesn't seem too bad, and as I mentioned before, if it's on the muscles that help you lever, planche, or whatnot, how would it not make levers, planches, and whatnot easier?

Let me be clear that the whole reason for setting a bodyfat guideline isn't even for aesthetics, but just to set a limit on how much dead weight I want on me while I'm hanging from the rings. Please hold your laughter; I'm being serious. I don't take my shirt off in public (Do you?) so that's no reason. Nor do I have any girls to impress in bed with my washboard abz (there are several good threads on IGx about this), so that's no reason either. I'm saying ~10% because that seems to be a reasonable compromise between added effort on the rings and added effort in the kitchen. I could just as easily say 220lbs/6%, since that'd be the same from an LBM perspective, but then that'd just be a pain to do. I'd do it if it'd make a substantial difference in my bodyweight:strength ratio, but otherwise, I like ice cream too much.

3. The "need" to gain weight. I don't need to, but I'd like to. (If I have used the word "need" anywhere before in this thread, I misspoke.) I will not feel like my life is a waste if I never hit 230lbs. I could just as well drop down to 180lbs to make progress on rings skills, but then that'd make partner balancing much more difficult, and that's also important to me. Partner balancing is basically just lifting another person in a series of strength/balance poses, and since that other person's weight is set, the bigger I can be, the more effective of a "base" I could be. Also, I might decide to give a SM competition a go at some point in the future just for the hell of it, but when the classes are normally 231lbs, 265lbs, and SHW, a 180lb guy doesn't stand a chance. So, when picking either down or up in weight as being a move that'd help me accomplish my goals, up seems to be be the better choice in my mind.

Also, tightrope walking doesn't discriminate between heavy or light, so either one works there. The only minor issue is that the heavier you go, the more it hurts your feet, since you have more weight to support, but the same area to support it on (a 3/4" wide strip down the centerline of each foot).

4. Regarding precedents. There was one guy on the club my first year who was 6'0, 240lbs and pretty damn jacked. Guys like him are hard to come by though, in a variety of ways, and I don't use him as an example of what I'm going for. He had a good handstand press, but definitely could have been stronger, simply because he never trained strength moves on rings.

5. Regarding physical activity. In day to day life, I'm not a lazy ass, though I'm generally not working my ass off 24/7 either. This week has just happened to be particularly bad because of yardwork (bamboo clearing), but the weight stall has been going on for longer than that - even during a 5 day period I took as deloading/rest (final exams). As I said before though, I'm shooting for pretty high-volume when it comes to the number of workouts per week, since I want to make a lot of progress on skill based work (like handstands/presses) and hammer the various strength moves I've come to find effective as frequently as possible (you don't get better at something by doing it less). To help maximize volume while minimizing accumulating fatigue, I'm giving intuitive training a shot. This gives me roughly 8-12hrs of working out, plus some tightrope walking. All my workouts are "feeling good," and I can tell I'm making progress on the stuff I'm working, so I figure I'm doing something right with it.

6. Regarding olive oil. Like I mentioned, I've had no positive results with this in the past, when I was trying to break past 190-195lbs, and taking in 5000-8000 calories per day. About 2000-3000 of that was olive oil, and a lot of the rest was ice cream; couldn't get nearly enough good protein from the campus diners (I cook for myself now though). It was delicious - at least the ice cream, not the olive oil - but I hardly gained an ounce from it. Now that I've got the protein (~300g/day is good enough, right?), do you think ~1000 cals of olive oil per day might give me the extra bump I need? I realize I could also get that hypertrophy-inducing nudge from backsquats, but since that's not going to help me at all with my BWE goals, I'd rather leave them out of it.

7. Regarding facial hair. Unfortunately, I can't get much beyond a gnarly neckbeard. It comes in on the upper parts of the face, just no where near thick enough to make it balanced. I've considered shaving my head too, but I've got a feeling that that would leave my head looking awkwardly large.


I think I touched on all the points I meant to. If I missed something you want me to address, please just bring it up again. Believe it or not, this is shorter and more concise than the last draft of this post.
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Old 05-24-2010, 07:49 AM   #24
Darryl Shaw
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Originally Posted by Patrick Donnelly View Post
I've got the protein (~300g/day is good enough, right?),
You require 1.2-1.8g of protein per kg of LBM per day so I think it's safe to say that you've got that side of things covered.

Quote:
do you think ~1000 cals of olive oil per day might give me the extra bump I need?
There's no secret to gaining weight, all it takes is a chronic positive energy balance. Eat more and/or exercise less and you'll get heavier.

If your weight gain has stalled despite your current diet it's probably because there's only so much food you can eat in a day. Once you've hit the limit of what your gut can tolerate you need to start adding more energy dense foods to your diet if you want to continue gaining weight. Clearly fat is the most energy dense macronutrient so extra olive oil will get the job done but, and potentially it's a big ol' butt, fat in excess of immediate requirements is going to be stored because that's the only thing your body can do with it. There is an alternative to shots of olive oil though and it's one that won't be directly converted into lard if you overeat - honey! It's like natures energy gel.

http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/news/l...egatetalk.html

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Rese...nce-with-honey

whfoods.org - Honey.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:41 AM   #25
Dave Van Skike
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Patrick.

230, 10% is not reasonable....230 15% might be. what a lot of people don't realize is that 10% is actually very lean. 6-8% is Bodybuilder freakshow lean.

this is 220 10%-ish. could just as easily be 12%,




Honestly I've seen 180 pound guys be very competitive in LW strongman, becuase they are really really really strong. Why? Well. for starters..they squat, press and pull. For your goals:

Squat press pull.
work on your skills
Do conditioning and diet until you can't pinch any fat on your ass and belly is about as complicated as it ever needs to get.

Anything beyond this is navel gazing of the worst kind. It will not help. It only hurts.

Even though I'm old and my hormonal milieu ain't what it used to be, I've worked in a fairly focused manner for the last three years, squatting pressing and pulling, doing heavy events (and very very very little conditioning) It was never the gaol to put on the 20 pounds of muscle I have, in fact I controlled calories as much as practical but I still walk around above 15%. The constant in play here... Heavy weights.

The type of gain you're talking about is not realistic or likely without them..
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:08 AM
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:29 AM   #26
Derek Weaver
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True what Dave said. 230 lbs @ 10% bodyfat is likely above your genetic muscular potential. Especially with minimal lower body work.

Regarding the guy on your team who was 240 and jacked, be jealous but don't expect that. He's either a) won the genetic lottery and/or b) juiced.

Not to mention that a "few pounds" of muscle on the lats and shoulders will take longer than this summer to achieve. If it's even possible anymore.

The take away: be realistic, continue to have fun,
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:39 AM   #27
Steven Low
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There was one guy on the club my first year who was 6'0, 240lbs and pretty damn jacked.
If you are referring to Dima he was actually around 200 lbs and jacked. Nowhere close to 240. I know because I asked him -- since we have to know what our weights are on chairs if things if some balancing poses are going to work.

That and he had some beastly Russian genetics.

Likely ~10% BF if that's what Dave is basing the photo above.

You'd probably be better off trying to get 220-230 at 15%. Then try to cut down to 10-12% then maybe rebulk back up depending.
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:27 AM   #28
Geoffrey Thompson
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1. More meat. Only 1.5#?
2. More squats. Being more massive requires squats. Period.
3. More realistic goals. As others have said, you're no Grimek. But, seriously, Grimek is AWESOME. Have you ever read about him?

Anyway, best bet: put 100# on the main lifts. If you eat to support that, you will be bigger. Of course, your goals might not completely align with that.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:51 AM   #29
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Doesn't need more meat. 300 grams of protein/day between milk, meat and whatever else he's eating is plenty when gaining. 1-1.5 grams/lb is plenty to get the job done assuming carbs and protein are sufficient for growth.

It's going to be more food in total, more squats, more deadlifts or different goals.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:07 PM   #30
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I didn't notice he was eating 10 eggs, too.
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