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-   -   The truth of long-term WD-type fasting (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1759)

Heidi Anschultz 11-03-2007 03:28 PM

The truth of long-term WD-type fasting

Stuart Mather 11-03-2007 04:03 PM

G'day Heidi, what I like most about IF is the improved body comp with slightly less resistance exercise than I was doing over a four year stretch with low carb only (which itself was a substantial improvement on mod/high 'healthy, complex/unprocessed carbs' previously). Warrior dieters who snack throughout the day are not really intermittently fasting anyway. And Ori himself doesn't seem to have a clue about the health/body comp benefits of carb restriction. I've no idea to what extent he personally snacks during the day. But the muscle growth gene expression/hgh boosting effect of going for longer without food is not going to be as high if you're 'soft plateauing' these mechanisms by not eliminating calorie intake altogether.

And as I think might have been mentioned to you in an earlier post, the tripartite approach to efficient muscle growth of IF/adequate protein and EFA's/ regular intense resistance exercise truly is an effective strategy. But you can't miss out one element and expect the others to take up the slack. You've mentioned that your study committments make resistance exercise difficult. Maybe so, Heidi, but even the busiest person in the world can manage a daily 10 minute body weight resistance program. You can do it anywhere/anytime/ wearing whatever you have on. But it will only work (in that short time frame) if you do it with an intensity that you may not have even imagined you were capable of. At the end of that 10 minutes, you really should feel as if you muscles are going to dissolve.

It's only ten minutes. Your muscle glycogen reserves won't even come close to being exhausted, even if you eat zero carbohydrate.

Muscles simply will not grow unless you work them, even if you do eat enough protein and intermittently fast. Give it a go. You'll be amazed. And FWIW it will also enhance cognitive function.


Jordan Glasser 11-03-2007 09:45 PM


Originally Posted by Heidi Anschultz (Post 21707)

So my question that I hope does not get me banned from this forum is this: does the warrior diet or intermittent fasting cause loss of muscle? Aside from the "health benefits" of intermittent fasting, why would it be a good thing to be wasting away neck muscle, organ muscle, etc. other muscles that you cannot in any way consciously train on a regular basis?

Maybe I am oversimplifying things here..... If you are wasting away, as per the question above, then there is something wrong, no matter what the diet is. The results that are sought after by IF or warrior diet are intended to increase lean muscle mass and or body composition, any other result would be indicative of a diet that simply isn't working.

The answer to your question, IMO, no it should not. Some muscle loss perhaps, but only to a point, wasting away, not at all a goal of any diet.

Derek Simonds 11-04-2007 03:56 AM

I had lunch with Scotty Hagnas a couple of weeks ago and I can tell you in no uncertain terms there is no wasting away on him at all! Dude is ripped and he is one of the earliest adopters of the IF / Paleo protocol I know.

Steve Liberati 11-04-2007 04:35 AM

Muslce loss? Sure, that is if you don't eat enough calories at the end of a fast or make up for it the on the following 'feed' day. I can certainly see this being an issue on the Warrior Diet. Too few calories.

However, with an IF schedule most follow here, enough calories are consumed after/before the 20 hour fast.

It really depends on your total calorie intake at the end of the day. Every other day I fast until 5 pm. 5 pm on, I'll have 2-3 meals giving me a total of around 19-20 blocks. If I fall short, I simply make up for it the next 'feed' day.
Not sure how you would make that work on the warrior diet? I would think 20 blocks in one GIANT meal would be nearly impossible (not like I was ever that brave to try it anyway).

Mike ODonnell 11-04-2007 04:58 PM

Eat enough protein and don't overtrain...you will not lose muscle. If you want to look like a bodybuilder, it's about training more fast twitch IIb fibers for increased size and glycogen loading. Plenty of lean people have more strength and explosiveness and don't need to look like a BB to perform.

Heidi you have asked this question before, so my advice is see a local professional physician if you feel you are losing muscle tissue while still eating a ton of protein/calories. There may be other health issues going on. Don't continue using the IF approach if it is NOT working for you, that defeats the purpose. Unless you can monitor all variables routinely and find what works, don't just guess and make no changes and continue down a road of ill-health

Yvana van den Hork 11-06-2007 07:38 AM

Heidi, I've personally tried to go back to my old ways of skipping breakfast & lunch and then only eat after 5pm.. but dropped the idea after just 2 days as my body just literally FROZE!
Then dabbled with 2 meals a day = breakfast @ 10am and dinner at 10pm for over a month, nah, maintenance dropped on it: added fruit which helped immensely.
But the actual diet that pleases me most of all and has sped up fat loss once again was
10am: breakfast 1-2hrs after rising
4 or 5-6pm: egg-based meal @ 4pm when I train, otherwise a protein-rich salad
6-8pm: a slowcarb drink when training, sometimes some extra carbs when I feel really tired upon returning home.
10-11pm : a heavier meal , with extra carbs the night before training (switched from eating more after training as this gives better performance)

So, there's 2 distinct non-eating windows. One at night that's nearly 12 hrs and another one that's somewhere between 6 and 10 hrs, depending on whether I'm rising early or not. I'm self-employed and mostly work at whatever time pleases me. Sometimes I wake up early, other times extremely late, like today since I've slept 11hrs (am ill).

My figuring is that most will benefit from lowered blood sugar levels and hence somewhat better body recomposition during the fasting period. And indeed, so do I. But the fact that you're fasting for 16-20 hours or longer makes you run more on adrenalin and less on food as fuel . I've been diagnosed as slightly hypothyroid and this explains most of the puzzle.
And this also seems to make me especially vulnerable to LBM loss. Despite high body fat levels, I lose excessive amounts of LBM once things don't go like they should go (overtraining, undereating by more than 15% etc.). This shouldn't happen, but it DOES.

So.. how about a sensible 3 meals a day, but just take out the energy-sapping lunch. Fasting DOES make me feel more alert, which I love.. and clearly is the reason why I used to do it all the time. But if all it does is lower your metabolism and you end up losing LBM instead of fat.. then it's not for YOU!

Greg Battaglia 11-07-2007 11:28 AM

Heidi, every single time I find myself not feeling well I know that all I have to do is consider the 4 pillars of health, and fix the one that's falling short. They are :
Stress/Enjoyment of life

If any one of these is out of wack or being neglected, you're going to feel like crap. Don't try to compare yourself to the innumerable bums around you (ESPECIALLY in college) that eat cafeteria food, get 3 hours of sleep a night, stress out about every little thing there is, and think that walking to their second floor class is a workout. These people DO feel like shit, all the time. They aren't healthy, and unfortunately, probably never will be. Try not to compare your self to people that are worse off than you are. Compare yourself to people who are better off than you are. This is the only way to progress and motivate yourself. So many people have that habit of saying "Well, atleast I'm better off than that person".

Greg Battaglia 11-09-2007 08:19 AM

I'm not in accelerated classes, as I focus more on my health than I do academics, admittedly. However, I do maintain a 3.8 GPA, WHILE also maintaining my health and fitness. It goes hand in hand. Hard work in one area of life leads to hard work in another. Honestly, I disagree with your contention that college is more important. The reason people want a "good" job is so that they can make lots of money, so that they can get lots of material things. I believe firmly in a life of simplicity, that is, to quote the author of the book titled Voluntary Simplicity "Outwardly simple, but inwardly rich." Once people achieve these high paying job they feel as though their dreams have come true, when in reality all these jobs do is create an enormous amount of stress, neglect of family and friends, and poor eating, sleeping, and exercise habits. The result is poor health, a dysfunctional family life, and a really miserable person overall. But hey, at least you get to watch football on your big screen TV that cost you 2 grand! Oh, and don't forget about bragging rights. You can tell all your friends how much better than them you are based on the size of your bank account. This will make up for all of the insecurities you have acquired due to an unusually (or is it usually, nowadays?) large waistline and little case of diabetes, heart disease, and maybe some insomnia to go along. This isn't a personal attack on you, but more of a vent for myself as I'm amazed at people's order of priorities these days. People believe that material objects can make them happy. This is not, and never will be true. Health, love, and passion are the keys to happiness. Not money.

Greg Battaglia 11-10-2007 12:59 PM

I couldn't agree with you more. This is stuff I've been thinking about for a long time. It really amazes me. I think the reason people chase materialism is because they've never truly experienced vibrant health. They were unhealthy from day one when their mothers fed them baby formula and cheerios. The only hope that they thought they had for happiness was materialism. I saw a documentary last week in a diversity class I'm taking on contemporary Chinese culture. They were comparing the lifestyles of industrial China to those who lived in rural area. It was amazing how much happier the rural community was than the industrial. The farmers had nothing but their small shacks and rice fields in terms of possessions, but were incredibly happy, as they had a close-knit family and a slow paced lifestyle. The grandparents of the farmers, who stilled lived of the land were in there 90's and still seemed upbeat and hopeful. The city dwellers were plagued with depression and anger despite having all sorts of material objects and money. They "enjoyed" plenty of fast food, fast cars, video games, guitars, etc yet openly admitted to being miserable. Sadly, it's only a few of us who are realizing this obvious problem. (sighing) what to do, what to do.

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