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-   -   'Clean' Deadlift vs Deadlift (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3380)

Carl Chia 11-19-2008 10:01 AM

'Clean' Deadlift vs Deadlift
 
For the Olympic lifter, should he/she do a deadlift that has the same positioning as the clean or the normal deadlift(Rippetoe)?

From what I understand:
Clean Deadlift = hip is lower. torso more upright. distance of shoulders in front of the bar is less, more vertical.

One thing I noticed is that the regular deadlift engages the hamstring more.

Arden Cogar Jr. 11-19-2008 10:10 AM

Carl,
I think you hit the nail on the head.

My personal thought is that trainees should stimulate the muscles in various ways to make them stronger overall. As a result, varied stance/grip/body position in a limited seting would be great. However, on work sets, I believe the stance/grip/body position for the clean and snatch should be the same - or as close to the same as possible.

Deadlifts would be seen, in my opinion, as an "assistance exercise."

I too see the regular deadlift as you've described - hip is lower. torso more upright. distance of shoulders in front of the bar is less, more vertical.

For me, I get more engagement from my quads with the "clean deadlift" as you've described it. When I raise my hips more to get my shoulders in front of the bar to get in the position to perform a squat clean - I really feel a pre-stretch on my hamstrings and the hamstrings simply raise my hips and shoulders at the same time during the first pull.

On both the clean and the deadlift - I push my feet through the floor and bring my hips to the bar - but for me, the clean actually engages my lumbars more. It could just be me. But that's what I observe.

Don't know if that helps any?

All the best,
Arden

John Filippini 11-19-2008 10:44 AM

This is something I've also been curious about. To add another question, I've sometimes gathered that clean or snatch deadlifts should be done with enough force to include a shrug. This idea has been pretty inconsistent though. Is that the intent here as well? Thanks.

Garrett Smith 11-19-2008 11:07 AM

John,
A clean or snatch DL done with enough juice to finish with a shrug is referred to as a "clean pull" or a "snatch pull". See the exercises section on the PMenu mainpage for video demos.

John Filippini 11-19-2008 11:55 AM

That's a good point. Silly that I'd gotten that confused about it really. Thanks!

Arien Malec 11-19-2008 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrett Smith (Post 43639)
A clean or snatch DL done with enough juice to finish with a shrug is referred to as a "clean pull" or a "snatch pull". See the exercises section on the PMenu mainpage for video demos.

I'd make a distinction between a clean pull done with acceleration and a shrug to finish, and a clean deadlift that finishes with a (slow, controlled, deliberate) shrug at the top.

Garrett Smith 11-19-2008 01:49 PM

Good point, Arien.

Chris H Laing 11-19-2008 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arden Cogar Jr. (Post 43632)
I too see the regular deadlift as you've described - hip is lower. torso more upright. distance of shoulders in front of the bar is less, more vertical.

When I raise my hips more to get my shoulders in front of the bar to get in the position to perform a squat clean...

I think your confused...or I am, but in a regular deadlift aren't the hips supposed to be higher than in a clean deadlift? Also, in a clean deadlift, shouldn't the shoulders be vertically over the bar, while in a regular deadlift they are slightly in front of it?

Have I been doing this wrong??

Arden Cogar Jr. 11-19-2008 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris H Laing (Post 43660)
I think your confused...or I am, but in a regular deadlift aren't the hips supposed to be higher than in a clean deadlift? Also, in a clean deadlift, shouldn't the shoulders be vertically over the bar, while in a regular deadlift they are slightly in front of it?

Have I been doing this wrong??

Chris,
I would NOT say you're doing anything wrong. I'm only speaking from my own perspective and my own training. I haven't trained anyone in a long time.

I hope to eventually become a competent coach. But for Olympic Lifting movements, I'm still learning.

With that said, when I teach someone to pull conventional deadlifts compared to the position for the clean - I have the hips lower, the shoulders over (not ahead) the bar - but that's just me. Other more competent folk may have a different opinion, and I completely respect that.

When I teach someone to pull - whatever movement, I look at their appendanges and their torso. I also take into consideration their strength training experience. I then look at how they squat before assessing what type of pull would be optimal. The point I'm trying to make is that we're all different and we have different backgrounds. A good coach/trainer needs to look at that - it's one of the reasons I advocate the use of multiple grips/foot stances/etc. from session to sessoin and even within the workout.

I doubt any of us could perform the conventional dead in the same manner as Andy Bolton. And look how much different his form is from awesome strongman Mark Felix. Andy has a close stance and a shoulder width grip. He sets his hips fairly high and his shoulders stay, I kid you not, almost behind the bar. Mark Felix uses a really wide stance, an even wider grip, and basically performs a Romanian Deadlift with more than 900 pounds - it's shocking. Then take Brian siders - a quad puller at it's finest, low hips, straight back, and he gets his shoulders over and somewhat behind the bar - even when he pulls conventional.

Don't know if any of that helps.? But I prefer a lower hip position for the deadlifts as compared to cleans, clean pulls, and clean stance RDL's, etc.

All the best,
Arden

Nick Borek 11-20-2008 05:43 PM

Honestly, once the torso gets so vertical, is there any reason not just to do a sumo deadlift?

One of my favorite deadlifters I've seen, who I think is a lot more athletic and technically sound (better ROM and obvious lockout) is Konstantinovs.

He does use a round upper back, but thats mostly due to how friggin' tall he is -

4 Reps at 815. Love it-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6NTk...eature=related

2 x 885.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaFr6...eature=related


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