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-   -   IF for Bodybuilding (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4952)

Matt Wil 12-23-2009 09:00 PM

IF for Bodybuilding
 
Hi All,
Just starting out researching IF and wanted to get some guidance from the more experienced lifters/eaters out there.
My stats currently:
39 yrs old
93kgs
15% bf (done with calipers over 9 sites)
training history of about 20 years.

I'm envisaging the following training types over a 12 week period, and would like some advice on how to structure the IF type eating:
DC 2 day split (working each bodypart 3 times in 2 week cycles on a mon/wed/fri split)
Tues and Thurs: stair climbing (mixing constant pace with intervals and such)

My goal is to recomposition my body to about 90kgs at 10% or less bf. My base cals typically have been around 3000cals/day consisting of the usual 6-7 meals per day, aobut 600-700grams of meat, 750grams vegies, 200grams rice, 1/2cup oats, 150grams WPI (spread out over the day with 2 scoops pre and post workout). I've also experimented with peri-workout BCAA/Beta Alanine etc and got good results with that.

After reading through Eat Stop Eat, and many other threads, I've determined that i'll be able to do one of two protocols, given my work and training schedule. I train in the evenings about 530pm.

1 - IF of 16hrs daily with an 8 hour feeding window, or
2 - 1 X 24hr fast on a Sunday starting to feed again on Monday.

If anyone could assist with macro breakdowns, nutrient timing etc and any general advice or guidelines for that type of recomp I'd really really appreciate it.

Thanks and Merry Christmas

Matt.

Mike ODonnell 12-24-2009 06:25 AM

You may also want to check out Martin's Leangains setup for bodybuilders on his site (leangains.com) or he also did an explanation of it here as well:
http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/2008...fire-fat-loss/

In the end, ESE approach can work....leangains approach can work....it will be about getting in enough calories (esp protein) and managing workouts around it.

Matt Wil 12-24-2009 03:30 PM

Thanks Mike
Thats kinda my question.. to get in 1.5grams protein per pound bodyweight (305grams per day) is a lot of meat and eggs and WPI..in addition getting the required fats and proteins in to make up the BMR caloric requirement of 3000-3200cals, well, thats a whole bunch of food..getting it into 3 meals is goin to mean some pretty big meals, it may still be more practicaly to 'graze' over the 8 hours to ensure all the calories get in by the cutoff.

After some further thought, I'm now seeking input on the following questions:

1 - if my feeding period is midday to 8pm, or 2pm -10pm, and I train in the middle of all that at 5pm, will that have any real effect on fat loss given most recommendations I see are to have the bulk of calories after training? This simply is not practical for me to do given my work schedule.

2 - on the cardio/stair climbing days, should I still follow a pre and post QPI shake protocol, or stick to sipping BCAA/Beta Alanine etc which i'd typically have peri weights workout?

3 - given i'm a late trainer, as in train in the evenings, having post workout starchy carbs in the evenings... is that going to cause me any problems with fat gain or sleep disruption?

Should I just do 1 24 hour fast starting 8am Sunday morning through to 8 am Monday morning and do my 'normal' eating schedule those days.. looking at it the IF of 16/8 gives me more fasted time, given i'd still have to eat on the days I do stair climbin etc so a mid week 24hour fast isn't practical either..

HOpe today is a great one for all your families.

Peace
Matt.

Derek Weaver 12-24-2009 04:12 PM

1) The biggest effect on fat loss is going to be your caloric deficit (assuming you're getting enough protein). If you set your calories @ maintenance each day, you'll see either no change or the sloooooooowest of recomps that will slow out. Given your training age, I would guess you'd see zero change.
2) It doesn't matter unless you can't maintain the necessary effort.
3) No.

Do what will work in your schedule. If that's a 24 hour fast on Sundays to eliminate ~3000 calories or more from your weekly intake, then do that. If you can swing something like 15/9, 16/8 etc. then do that.

Remember though that you can lose fat faster than you can put on muscle. If you must try and recomp, remember that a) the # on the scale is likely to drop even if you are adding lean mass while cutting fat (unlikely in the first place anyway) and b) you'll take longer to get to your goals than if you just leaned out then made for a slow/lean gain approach.

Nobody can tell you that you should do this one or that one. Do the one that is doable for you.

I'm guessing you already know all of this. Nothing wrong in asking the questions and/or looking for affirmation of an idea, but in the end you make the decision. Not anyone else.

Matt Wil 12-24-2009 04:23 PM

Thanks Derek for those replies..

Ok so I would need to drop to 2500-2750 (from carbs probably) or so to see noticeable fat loss.. I know my scale weight is going to drop, that's all ok, I have to drop a few to get to my 'recomp' weight anyway, even if I drop a few kgs below that to 88kgs or something, if its at a sub 10%bodyfat given I'm a shortass that'll still look solid. The primary goal is getting sub 10% bodyfat first at as close to 90kgs as I can get. Cut then grow is probably the most realistic method here..

I also enjoy functional strength so being able to still deadlift 200kgs and such is going to be important for me to maintain. I may even sub the DC rest pause style of training for a low volume/phil hernon type program which ahs worked well for me in the past.

You're right Derek it's all up to me, always has been, but it is good as a long time 6 meal a day eater and trainer to gain affirmation and guidance on my thinking in what is a very new way of viewing things.


Matt.

George Mounce 12-24-2009 07:29 PM

I was listening to Robb Wolf the other day via one of his Podcasts, and the thing I had to agree with him most is....

Until you have everything else dialed in, IF should be the last thing you do for health and wellness.

You want to bodybuild to get big. So you need to eat like a freaking hippo. Except do it the Paleo way (get rid of that rice stuff!). Then every once in a while on a rest day, skip breakfast and lunch then gorge your dinner like an ancient man just killing his meal for the day.

To lift big you gotta be big, and not eating is not going to make you big.

Matt Wil 12-24-2009 10:10 PM

Thanks George, yes you're right, my goal is ultimately to get bigger than what I am currently, however my first goal is to get as lean as I can, see what it looks like and then decide where to from there.. Even at currenty bodyweight I'll be sizeable if I maintain or gain a few lean kilos in the process..

So for now, its lean up, then lean gain.

George Mounce 12-25-2009 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Wil (Post 67842)
Thanks George, yes you're right, my goal is ultimately to get bigger than what I am currently, however my first goal is to get as lean as I can, see what it looks like and then decide where to from there.. Even at currenty bodyweight I'll be sizeable if I maintain or gain a few lean kilos in the process..

So for now, its lean up, then lean gain.

To get lean, I suggest you drop the grains and dairy, pump up the lean meats, fats from avocados, olive oil, and coconut oil. No fruit beyond berries and a ton of veggies (keeping away from starches - sweet potatoes are an exception as a post workout favorite of mine living in Mississippi). Stay away from nuts.

You do that I bet you'll not only be lean, but feel really good about being lean.

Derek Weaver 12-25-2009 01:45 PM

See this thread. Most of it's broken down there.
I'm admittedly in the minority around here with regards to setting up a diet approach.

Matt Wil 12-25-2009 04:22 PM

Thanks George/Derek,
I've toyed around with some macros and my daily totals are looking like this so far, its still a work in progress but feel free to comment:

600 grams meat (beef or chicken)
150grams almonds
160grams WPI (on weight training days only for now)
500-600 grams vegetables/salad (cucumber, capsicum/avocado/mushroom/celery in olive oil dressing)
125 grams brown rice on workout days only.

my IF will be from 8pm to midday following day, feeding from midday to 8pm.
I work 8am to 5pm and train at about 530pm

8am - noon I'll be sipping on BCAAs/Beta Alanine in water and drinking black coffee.

Pre and post workout are 60grams WPI in water
Peri workout will be more BCAAs/Beta Alanine, and am considering a waxy maize carb drink as well, not sure on that yet. This will be for weights workouts only for now. During stair climbs it'll be BCAA/Beta Alanine only for now.

Training is:
Mon/Wed/Fri: DC or low volume style strength program
Tue/Thurs: stair climbing mixing 'normal' running with intervals.

From memory the macro breakdown is P: 43%/F 35%/CHO 21% VERY roughly...
I think it was 1100 cals from PRO, 1100 from Fat, and aout 550 from CHO to aim for a daily totaly of 2750 which is 250 below my 3000 maintenance cals.

Ok, so there's my start point. Feel free to comment.

Thanks everyone for your input so far, very valuable and much appreciated. Enjoying learning about something new!


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