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-   -   The latest videos from XF (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=498)

Steve Shafley 02-08-2007 09:17 PM

The latest videos from XF
 
I thought they are pretty interesting and illustrate the demoed lifts well, except the deadlift.

All of the deadlifts in the Crossfit deadlift video showed extremely light weights.

That's fine, but if you are programming stuff like "Deadlift: 5-5-5-3-3-3-1-1-1" then you are going to see a complete and utter breakdown in this kind of form.

A quick search on YouTube reveals a lot of competitive PL deadlifts, and you'll see very few of them, if any, that look like that perfect "clean" style deadlift on the CF video.

Mike ODonnell 02-08-2007 09:22 PM

Wow.....there was one tall lady in there.....the heavy DL was not built for tall people.

Jesse Woody 02-09-2007 06:22 AM

Hmmm...
 
Quote:

A quick search on YouTube reveals a lot of competitive PL deadlifts, and you'll see very few of them, if any, that look like that perfect "clean" style deadlift on the CF video.
I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at...are you saying that since people striving for competitive totals have a breakdown in form that it would be better to give that as a demonstration for the movement? I've always held my clients to a very high level of proper form, especially during maximum efforts. If any of those individual points begins to deteriorate the lift stops and we drop weight until we fix it. The only place where my own deadlift changes when I get near maximal weights is I use a switch-grip, but otherwise the movement remains the same.

Jonas Lind 02-09-2007 06:44 AM

Hmm. I actually think this is interesting. I have (almost) never seen anyone lift an extreme amount of weight (near max)with the form used in the CF video. The strong PL's "all" look like they are straightening or rounding their backs.
Myself, I like to use the form in the video because my lower back does not hurt the day after. So, it must be something to strive for, no? Even if I can't lift as much using it. (When I go heavy my back seems to straighten out too, wanting to round out.)

Whats the deal with this? Back arched, straight or rounded? Is it depending on bodytype? Enlighten me!

Steve Shafley 02-09-2007 07:15 AM

If you look at many competitive deadlifts, you'll see that the lower back, or lumbar region is still neutral, but there's a rounding of the upper back.

This is innocuous when it occurs, and if the lifter is aware of it, and it also serves to shorten the ROM somewhat.

I think Rippetoe's treatise on proper deadlift form nails it, that can be found in the CFJ section of the website. Thats something we should all strive for even in maximal lifts. However, if you look at the best in the world, this isn't how it goes.

This will occur even when the best form pullers, i.e. Olympic lifters, pull a maximal deadlift. You will see how their form changes from the one optimal for OLs to one similar to the competitive PL form.

It's ludicrious to hold up a 95-135# deadlift as a proper demonstration of form for ALL deadlifts. It doesn't happen that way in real life.

Mike O'Donnell had a great point...some people aren't well suited for a lift.

And, when they talk about "health lift" way back in YE OLDE DAYES OF IRONE LORE, they are talking about a handful of people, most of whom were very well suited for lifting in general who were doing it. The "deadlift" as show in the video isn't "in our genes". That's la goofy statement. What we've done evolutionarily is bend over and pick things up. These things very rarely had handles, or were balanced on each side. We instinctually try to get our hands under it, and to get the object as close to our body as possible. That's the primal movement pattern.

Jesse, It'd be very educational for everyone if you filmed a deadlift workout where you hit a maximal deadlift and toss it up on YouTube. I'm sure that's something everyone would appreciate seeing. I've got some there, and if people want to comment about my shitty form, portruding gut, or frequent use of the word "um", feel free to do so.

And, I'm not saying maintaining form is bad. If you have the trigger that you've reached your max when you lose that form, then that's probably a valuable thing, especially for those with tricky backs, given that you are using the clean grip deadlift as a training movement, and not as a competitive lift. However, that trigger almost always needs to come from an external observer, and not the person performing the lift.

Jesse Woody 02-09-2007 08:21 AM

Steve, sounds like a plan. I totally agree about a shift towards neutral/flat as being relatively innocuous, but only in highly trained individuals who have an awareness of the degree of difference between this position and one that could be potentially harmful. Before somebody reaches that point, I feel it more-responsible to stop them short of their "potential" for the sake of reinforcing the most-safe form I can possibly teach them.

You know, I also happened to think, perhaps even if a deadlift performed with a lighter weight isn't necessarily an exact demonstration of the form that will be present with higher loads, if one strives for this form while lifting heavier weights they will be less likely to injure themselves. That is, if you shoot for neutral lower back, chest up, shoulders back, your musculature will function more effectively as a support structure. Just a thought.

Steve Shafley 02-09-2007 09:19 AM

I don't think I'm refuting that.

Greg Everett 02-09-2007 09:32 AM

I'm certainly not one to defend CF exercise demos--I've had beefs with lots of them. I agree with pretty much everything said to this point--maximal, particularly competitive, deadlifts will not resemble this ideal form. However, I would absolutely say that in training the typical client (i.e. not competitive lifters), there's no need to take a DL or any other lift beyond the point at which that ideal form is compromised. So really what you're willing to accept in terms of form depends entirely on the lifter in question.

Greg Everett 02-09-2007 09:33 AM

PS - Steve. Don't think I didn't notice your new signature. Maybe you should run for governor instead.

Jonas Lind 02-09-2007 09:52 AM

Then again. If you are going to demonstrate DL's in this manner(Video) to the "unknown" masses, its probably a good idea to utilize good form.


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