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-   -   Zinc upper limit? (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5845)

Justin Arnold 11-03-2010 11:04 PM

Zinc upper limit?
 
After roughly a year of strict paleo eating (though limited variance, something I'm working on), I noticed a gradual drop in test production. After a bit of digging around here and elsewhere, a couple months back I got curious about Zinc and started supplementing. Initially I was taking 150mg/day of chelated Zinc in the morning with breakfast (no dairy), and inside of ~3 weeks I started to notice favorable "results". Then another 3 weeks go by of the same dose/meal, and all results had disappeared. So I move to 100mg/day of zinc picolinate (only started that last week).

I only got my hands on zinc tally liquid this week, and the results were not good. NO metallic/dirty taste for at least 5 minutes. nothing. Ugh. I'll try again just for verification in the next couple of days.

So, how much zinc is "safe" to take in my situation? I plan on upping the Zn supplementation, just don't know how much to go to, and definitely don't want to set myself back.

Fwiw, i seem to be a paradoxical responder to magnesium. For the first week or so of 300mg/day before bed I sleep better. After about a week though, everything goes to hell in a hand basket. Wake up every 2-3 hours, sometimes having trouble going back to sleep. The more I persist with Magnesium, the worse it gets. Stop the mag, and 2 days later I'm back to normal.

Is there anything else I'm missing here?

Jarod Barker 11-04-2010 08:44 AM

Have you tried transdermal magnesium? You can use Ancient Minerals or make your own using Primordial Performance's transdermal gel. Transdermal magnesium is better absorbed and if I remember correctly it increases DHEA levels which oral magnesium does not.

As for zinc, I'd follow Poliquin's guidelines. You can supplement high until your zinc tally test improves. What's cool about chelated minerals is the don't bond to other things so you can take them with other foods and supplements without worrying about interactions. This may actually backfire with some minerals though because they are better absorbed when taken with food because they bond with other nutrients and become bioavailable. I don't know the specifics on zinc, but I'm just guessing that you may have found one of those cases. Try the zinc picolinate, and see if that works, otherwise, you could always try some good old ZMA.

Garrett Smith 11-04-2010 10:19 AM

I'd say cycle the mag.

Maybe consider adding some copper to balance the zinc (I forget the ratio off the top of my head).

Depending on your fat intake, it may need to be increased.

Jarod Barker 11-04-2010 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrett Smith (Post 82655)
I'd say cycle the mag.

Maybe consider adding some copper to balance the zinc (I forget the ratio off the top of my head).

Depending on your fat intake, it may need to be increased.

Dr. G, since this thread is about the upper limit for zinc, this is probably a good time to ask. I know that zinc toxicity is very real for metal workers etc. But I read once, and I searched all over for it, but couldn't find it, in an article I came across it said that athletes did not need to worry about zinc toxicity from supplementation because they lose so much zinc. I do believe the article was also selling a mineral supplement, so I have to be suspect of their recommendation, but it made sense. I think I read something similar on Tnation about their Elite Mineral Support as well.

Justin Arnold 11-04-2010 11:29 PM

I had specifically been taking my Zn with meals due to reports of it causing upset stomach without.. Chad, are you saying that chelated vs picolinate would absorb differently in the presence of other nutrients?

fwiw, i get at least a pound of red meat per day.. seems like I should be getting a fair amount of zinc from that alone. perhaps because it isn't often grass-fed it's lower in minerals?

I forgot to mention that ZMA isn't an option. Not sure whether it's the Magnesium or B Vitamins, but the very night I take the stuff my sleep is completely awful. Plus, it is very rare that I can hit all the requirements on the bottle (empty stomach, 30 mins before sleep, etc)


Dr G, My fat intake is pretty high right now, so I'll definitely look into ratios for copper.

Jarod Barker 11-05-2010 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Arnold (Post 82687)
I had specifically been taking my Zn with meals due to reports of it causing upset stomach without.. Chad, are you saying that chelated vs picolinate would absorb differently in the presence of other nutrients?

fwiw, i get at least a pound of red meat per day.. seems like I should be getting a fair amount of zinc from that alone. perhaps because it isn't often grass-fed it's lower in minerals?

I forgot to mention that ZMA isn't an option. Not sure whether it's the Magnesium or B Vitamins, but the very night I take the stuff my sleep is completely awful. Plus, it is very rare that I can hit all the requirements on the bottle (empty stomach, 30 mins before sleep, etc)


Dr G, My fat intake is pretty high right now, so I'll definitely look into ratios for copper.

Yes, chelated minerals are absorbed differently than others. You'll have to forgive me, my chemistry understanding is limited and I cannot explain the how or why, but I can tell you that chelated minerals don't interact or bond with other minerals, so you can take minerals together that would otherwise normally interact.

I make my own little zinc and magnesium formula before bed. I take 500mg of chelated magnesium and 50mg of zinc gluconate. Seems to do the trick for me, and it's way cheaper than ZMA.

Garrett Smith 11-05-2010 08:13 AM

My brother has actually thrown up from taking zinc lozenges on an empty stomach. Some people can do zinc away from food, however, the worst time to do it is before one has eaten anything for the day at all. If you take zinc on "too empty" of a stomach and get nauseous, eating something soon will often stop the nausea a lot sooner than it would have ended otherwise.

I haven't seen much on zinc toxicity from supplements either. Likely because generally athletes need a lot more zinc combined with the fact that bioavailability of zinc supplements is pretty darn low.

Justin, look into this article, particularly the parts on B6. http://www.acu-cell.com/acn.html

Emily Mattes 11-05-2010 07:06 PM

I overdid the zinc a few years ago and gave myself a mild case of poisoning. Check this thread here. It took a while, probably 2-3 months of oversupplementation, got worse as I tried to keep supplementing, and only cleared up once I quit supplementing everything with zinc in it for a few weeks. If you start feeling nauseous and get GI issues and get that feeling in your mouth where you're about to throw up all the time cut it out. I was getting that an a few other symptoms, don't quite remember now.

Garrett Smith 11-05-2010 09:12 PM

Also, even after months of 100mg/day zinc supplementation, I was never able to get the zinc taste test past the "off-tasting water" stage. I had another patient who started with no taste, 100mg/day of zinc for one month had him spitting out the test! Strange.

Darryl Shaw 11-06-2010 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Arnold (Post 82635)
So, how much zinc is "safe" to take in my situation?

The tolerable upper intake level for zinc is 40mg/d for adults.

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?re...10026&page=442

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-Consumer/

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/zinc/


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