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Old 12-04-2008, 09:13 PM   #1
dylan eddy
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Default training fat metabolisim

i have a question about training the body to use more fat as fuel in endurance efforts.
my experience and research tells me that this adaptation is very usefull for ultra distance athletes, but i have always used LOTS of LSD training to achieve it in the past. as i have switched to a more CF approach to training i am wondering what i can do to maximise my gains in this area, without doing TOO much LSD (i actually enjoy some).

my thoughts so far:

a. low carb diet with LOTS of fat.

b. doing 60-90 minute moderately paced efforts in a fasted state.

c. pre-exhausting the glycogen in the specific muscle groups beforehand. (say squats before a bike ride or jump rope before a run.)

if it matters my diet now is about 50% fat 25/25 protien and carbs with a 3rd of those carbs coming post workout as per some of Robb Wolfs recommendations. i commute on my bike and am doing a strength biased version of CF at the moment.

im getting set to do a marathon, a 50 miler, and a 12 hour MTB race in the next 6 months its gonna be AWESOME!!

any feedback recommendations?
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:29 PM   #2
Steven Low
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Easiest way to force yourself is the change in diet such as in A. You'll probably feel like crap for maybe a week or two depending on how fast your body can adapt though.

Both B and C will work to lesser extents.
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:50 PM   #3
dylan eddy
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DANG that was fast!
you must live online steven.
thanks

How low do the carbs need to be to cause the adaptation? do they really need to be cut back a ton? or is it more a question of doing enough work to burn through what you take in?
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:03 PM   #4
dylan eddy
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never mind!
i used the search and found lots of good answers to the last question.
thanks again
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:00 PM   #5
Grissim Connery
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wait holdup. are you running 50 miles?! straight? do you have to train for that on the interstate?
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Old 12-05-2008, 05:45 AM   #6
Steven Low
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissim Connery View Post
wait holdup. are you running 50 miles?! straight? do you have to train for that on the interstate?
Haven't heard of ultra marathons before?
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Old 12-13-2008, 07:41 AM   #7
Mike Prevost
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Default Fat Metabolism

Quote:
Originally Posted by dylan eddy View Post
i have a question about training the body to use more fat as fuel in endurance efforts.
my experience and research tells me that this adaptation is very usefull for ultra distance athletes, but i have always used LOTS of LSD training to achieve it in the past. as i have switched to a more CF approach to training i am wondering what i can do to maximise my gains in this area, without doing TOO much LSD (i actually enjoy some).

my thoughts so far:

a. low carb diet with LOTS of fat.

b. doing 60-90 minute moderately paced efforts in a fasted state.

c. pre-exhausting the glycogen in the specific muscle groups beforehand. (say squats before a bike ride or jump rope before a run.)

if it matters my diet now is about 50% fat 25/25 protien and carbs with a 3rd of those carbs coming post workout as per some of Robb Wolfs recommendations. i commute on my bike and am doing a strength biased version of CF at the moment.

im getting set to do a marathon, a 50 miler, and a 12 hour MTB race in the next 6 months its gonna be AWESOME!!

any feedback recommendations?
Hi Dylan

I don't think the science is conclusive in this area yet. Any type of aerobic training will train fat metabolism. Trained muscles are better at burning fat and tend to store more intramuscular fat. This happens no matter what you eat. It is unclear whether training in a fasted state or after consuming fat will enhance this adaptation further. It is known that exercising after a fat meal will lead to an increased reliance on fat rather than carbohydrates.

A few suggestions....If you are on a low carb diet, you can take advantage of whatever adaptations you have and still maximize gyycogen storage, just in case. Continue to eat low carb but 3 days before your race, consume plenty of carbohydrates to maximize muscle glycogen stores for 2 days while you are tapering. Then on race day, consume your traditional high protein, high fat meal prior to the race to stimulate fat oxidation during the run (you burn what you eat immediately prior to the race). The glycogen that you stored in your muscles 2 days prior will still be there but your body will want to burn fat first, since that was what you ate pre race.

Once carbs are moved into the muscles, they are effectively trapped inside of the muscles and cannot be used to increase blood sugar (unlike liver glycogen). They must be burned by the muscles to fuel activity. This is good because it will be available for you during your run. You get the best of both worlds, muscles full of glycogen with the fat oxidation adaptations from a low carb diet and low carb/high fat meal immediately before competition. You might need that stored glycogen in the final few miles.

This has been shown to be effective in rats but I am not sure that there are enough human studies to say for sure that it is optimal. However, it is a low risk approach for somebody already on a low carb diet.

Mike
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Old 12-20-2008, 07:41 PM   #8
Patrick Yeung
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First, ive done a lot of research on this subject and was very interested in this type of training, but I am by no way an expert, so read with caution (and welcome to discussion)

Ive competed in Marathons, Tris and Xterras.

First, what are you familar with now? Why are you trying to change it?

From here on out, I wont be able to produce studies at the moment, but if you look for it online, youll find it. A lot of this is from TriFuel and other similar sites.

Im with Mike in saying that getting your body to burn fat during your long runs is a product of well, long running. This happens because your body can only absob something like 300-400 calories an hour, but will obviously burn well in excess of this every hour of that run. Your body then learns to burn fat and use that as fuel when that is burned out.

I am familar with low carb diets and their principles, but I beleive those are more suitable for power lifting applications than in this case. I may be wrong, but when I was on a low carb diet while training, my long runs suffered.


Whats your training scheduel look like now too?
Between runs/lifting.

Heres a way to put it into perspective though. Lets say your 50 mile race takes ya about... 7 hours to finish? Thats a lot of fuel and liquids youll need to replace during that run. What do you plan on eating? Fat? Probably more likely fruits/nuts and or gels/gus or some sort. I think we can all agree that sugar burns much faster than fat, and thats probably what youll want during a race. Youll never be able to put in enough fuel into those muscle 'carb loading' only 2 days before to last you through anything over 3 hours at race effort.

Carbs are better for long distance run fueling ( >4 hours) IMO

Besides, the training involved in distance running burns so many calories, just eat everything in sight and taper/clean up towards the end.
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Old 12-21-2008, 08:24 AM   #9
Mike Prevost
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Default fat metabolism

For some more thoughts on this check out pro triathlete Gordo Byrn's articles. He is a strict Paleo diet athlete. However, he has had extensive conversations with Dr. Cordain about how paleo falls apart a bit for endurance athletes. Gordo, guided by Dr. Cordain, recommends some adjustments to paleo to suit endurance athletes. It is a reasonable approach and has served Gordo well. www.coachgordo.com (W/F/S)
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Old 12-21-2008, 08:35 AM   #10
Daniel Labuz
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Thanks, was looking for an endurance athlete that was successful using the Paleo Diet.
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