Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Training > Olympic Weightlifting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-04-2009, 11:06 AM   #1
Brian Lawyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 338
Default DC - Snatch Balance and Mid-hang Snatch

My coach suggested doing some snatch balances and hang snatches. So I went through the CA WOD archives and found the below WOD that included both. Any digital coaching advice would be appreciated.

**All links WFS**

Power Snatch + Snatch Balance + Mid-hang Snatch
Set 1 - 120lbs
Set 2 - 120lbs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxi3qxVhAdk
Set 3 - 120lbs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWCWGcclDLA
Set 4 - 125lbs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvxB2lONK-8
Set 5 - 125lbs

Power Clean + Power Jerk + Split Jerk
5 x 185lbs - No video
__________________
CA Training Log
Brian Lawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 11:21 AM   #2
Brian Lawyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 338
Default Snatch Balance Technique

For my snatch balances I was trying to start with locked straight legs and simply initiate the movement via an ankle extension. I know Coach Everett and the demo vids show a slightly different variation of the snatch balance where the movement is initiated with a slight dip almost like a jerk. Based on advice from my coach I opted just for the ankle extension so as to avoid making the movement into a snatch jerk.

I don't know if there is a right or wrong way to do the snatch balance.....
__________________
CA Training Log
Brian Lawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 01:19 PM   #3
Emily Mattes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 727
Default

You do kind of a cross between a snatch balance and a heaving snatch balance (that's how I refer to them anyway). With a strict snatch balance I just drop straight down under the bar, no push at all. Heaving snatch balance, you give a little push to get the bar up just a tad before dropping under it. My only concern with initiating with the ankles is it may train you to start coming off your heels too early in the pull and catching the lift forward. I'm no expert, though.

The starting position for your hang looks pretty good, but your bar path swings out quite a bit. Keep it closer to your body. Remember that you are allowed to let your arms bend as the bar travels upward, you just don't want to actually pull with them.
Emily Mattes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 01:42 PM   #4
Brian Lawyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 338
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
... you just don't want to actually pull with them.
Thanks Emily! that is good critique. I hadn't noticed, until you said, that my arms were swinging out.

Regarding your one point above, aren't we at some point supposed to use our arms to pull under the bar, i.e. the third pull on the snatch. Or were you just talking in terms of the second pull that I don't want to be pulling with my arms.
__________________
CA Training Log
Brian Lawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 03:58 PM   #5
Derek Maffett
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lawyer View Post
Regarding your one point above, aren't we at some point supposed to use our arms to pull under the bar, i.e. the third pull on the snatch. Or were you just talking in terms of the second pull that I don't want to be pulling with my arms.
She means no pulling during the first and second pulls. Third pull - all greens are go, pull the levers, bat the hatches, raise the curtains, strike up the band, and get things started on the pulling thingy. And subsequently pressing thingy because this is a snatch.
Derek Maffett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 03:52 PM   #6
Derek Maffett
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 151
Default

I see what you're trying but keep in mind that the ankle extension you're using here is different from the ankle extension you'd see in a normal lift. It normally occurs with weight over the heels (dynamically), but you're coming up and forward onto your ankles. Your COG should stay over the heels, so you're actually changing the mechanics of the lift, causing more significant problems in the future.

Besides that, the snatch balances looked good. Try for full depth on the squat, though.
Derek Maffett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 04:24 PM   #7
Brian Lawyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 338
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Maffett View Post
I see what you're trying but keep in mind that the ankle extension you're using here is different from the ankle extension you'd see in a normal lift. It normally occurs with weight over the heels (dynamically), but you're coming up and forward onto your ankles. Your COG should stay over the heels, so you're actually changing the mechanics of the lift, causing more significant problems in the future.

Besides that, the snatch balances looked good. Try for full depth on the squat, though.
Derek, thanks for responding again. You appear to be one of my regulars with good insight as usual!!

Lot's of random thoughts to follow...

I think I understand what you are saying about ankle extension but I also believe you are thinking in terms of that I am doing the ankle extension in order to somehow mimic or practice that which occurs in an actual snatch or C&J which I don't think is the case.

I believe my coach was having me initiate the movement with ankle extension simply as a means to create a slight separation from the bar in order to drop into the snatch recieving position, as opposed, to the more dramatic dip and go that is shown on the demo vids (i.e. like a mini-jerk or "heave" as Emily described). So like emily was saying, it is kind of an cross between the two (i.e. a middle progression) of simply dropping into a recieving position and doing the heaving version.

So with that in mind, do you still think I am looking at problems in the future? If so, do you think Greg Everett's method of Snatch balance with the mini-jerk to create separation is better or should I go with Emily's suggestion of simply dropping into a recieving position.

I am thinking for this particular routine, Power Snatch + Snatch Balance + MH Snatch, I would opt for the dipping or heaving snatch balance so that I can use a weight that is still challenging for the power snatch and hang snatch. I will probably have to use lighter weight if I was simply going to drop into a recieving position.
__________________
CA Training Log
Brian Lawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 04:44 PM   #8
Brian Lawyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 338
Default Snatch Balance Terminologies

OK, I did some more research on CA exercises and Demos. Here are the snatch balance variations according to Mr. Everett.

Snatch balance - according to the video description, this is as Emily described, simply holding the bar racked on your back with snatch grip and dropping into a recieving position. But the demo vid and Mr. Everett's book both say to initiate this with a slight dip and drive, followed by the foot transition.

Heaving Snatch balance - here there is apparently no foot transition. you start and end with feet in recieving position. This exercise is still initiated by the dip and drive under the bar but your feet never leave the ground.

Pressing snatch balance - This is the same as the heaving snatch but without the dip drive to initiate the movement. So feet in receiving position and no foot transition and you simply press under the bar.
__________________
CA Training Log
Brian Lawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 05:11 PM   #9
Brian DeGennaro
Senior Member
 
Brian DeGennaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Baldwin, NY
Posts: 513
Default

A snatch balance is simply popping the bar off the shoulder just to unload it and drop under it as fast as possible in an attempt to catch it at arms length in the bottom of a squat. The difference between heaving and just regular snatch balance is the aggressiveness. For a true snatch balance you want to pull yourself under the bar with the same speed you would a snatch.
Brian DeGennaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 07:07 PM   #10
Derek Maffett
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lawyer View Post
I think I understand what you are saying about ankle extension but I also believe you are thinking in terms of that I am doing the ankle extension in order to somehow mimic or practice that which occurs in an actual snatch or C&J which I don't think is the case.

I believe my coach was having me initiate the movement with ankle extension simply as a means to create a slight separation from the bar in order to drop into the snatch recieving position, as opposed, to the more dramatic dip and go that is shown on the demo vids (i.e. like a mini-jerk or "heave" as Emily described). So like emily was saying, it is kind of an cross between the two (i.e. a middle progression) of simply dropping into a recieving position and doing the heaving version.

I realize you're trying to just elevate the bar a little, but your COG is shifting forward along with the ankle extension. It might not be necessary to shift forward just because the ankle extension is all on its own, but it seems considerably more difficult and perhaps coming up on pointless to extend the ankles dynamically without shifting COG forward.

I suppose it makes some sense if you consider that the moment the heels lift, your COG is driving you down with your ankles not cooperating with the descent. Kind of like if you were to cut two adjacent corner legs off the Eiffel Tower. The other legs refuse to buckle and allow the tower to fall straight, so the COG in the middle of the tower (or over the heel) would make the tower fall the only way it can - in the human parallel, that would be backwards, and it's exactly what was happening to me when I attempted it.

Okay, now let's take the Eiffel Tower's two remaining legs, hinge joint them, and set the whole thing down on the ground. If the two legs (ankles) start to rise up extremely quickly, the tower would just pop into the air and gravity wouldn't be able to cause much of that backwards tumble. (Note that we're also imagining that the two hinged legs have been slid closer to the middle of the Eiffel Tower.) Now, if the tower were raised slowly, it would fall because gravity affects the whole thing.

Now we add 100,000 tons of anti-matter underneath the tower. The explosive force sends it sky-high, but the hinged feet underneath the tower push up at that time. Free of much of the weight of the tower, the feet can push up powerfully instead of using a slow elevating force. The feet would then help more for high power production and would likely not unbalance the tower much if at all. Furthermore, when the tower starts to fall down (as it already kind of was when the feet were just slowly raising the tower), the feet will be able to fully retract and thus avoid unbalancing the tower.

Unfortunately, the tower is made of metal and cannot squat. It lands with locked knees and falls apart. Which probably isn't a bad thing because a two-legged Eiffel Tower exposed to large quantities of anti-matter isn't of very much use to anyone. Even the French.

Make sense?


So with that in mind, do you still think I am looking at problems in the future? If so, do you think Greg Everett's method of Snatch balance with the mini-jerk to create separation is better or should I go with Emily's suggestion of simply dropping into a recieving position.

Personally, I wouldn't try to use ankle extension if that's all I'm using. It works fine in conjunction with knee and hip extension, but it sounds problematic on its own and you seem to be taking the weight-shifty-forward-problem thing. You can always make use of a dip/jerk with less power. It will definitely be a problem if you get into the habit of shifting your COG forward.

I am thinking for this particular routine, Power Snatch + Snatch Balance + MH Snatch, I would opt for the dipping or heaving snatch balance so that I can use a weight that is still challenging for the power snatch and hang snatch. I will probably have to use lighter weight if I was simply going to drop into a recieving position.

Ew, that's programming. Ask Greg. Heavier sounds good.
...
Derek Maffett is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:42 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator