Gant's hybrid/training for marathon..counterproductive?

David Klotz · 09-29-2010, 09:22 PM

Hello, first post on these forums. I'm not quite sure where to turn to here and need some advice.

I've lost a ton of weight over the last two years(195 lbs!) working with my training and doing the main site Crossfit exercises and have recently gotten turned on to Gant's hybrid program(about 2 months into it).

Currently I'm at 180, about 12.5 percent body fat and about 2 months into what I would deem "heavier" training as prescribed (squats, deadlifts, etc) My long term goal is to have a physical that is very lean, strong. I have zero desire to bulk up. Think Michael Phelps physique or a gymnast. I'm enjoying throwing the heavy weight--and I'm seeing great progress. I was finally able to deadlift more than my body weight a few weeks ago(220 lbs) and was stoked. I love this but...

've recently set a new goal of wanting to run a half marathon in Jan as well. It's something I've wanted to do for many years but was too heavy/unmotivated to do so.

My question is this: Is it possible to train effectively with Gant's hybrid program and running or given this running goal would it simply be more effective to shift gears into Crossfit Endurance? Would my CNS be stable after doing a heavy lift, a heavy metacon and then running 30 minutes? I'd like to be able to do both but I don't want to over tax myself and risk injury.

Any ideas?

Derek Weaver · 09-29-2010, 11:44 PM

Don't do CFE, unless you plan on not finishing your race.

What I would suggest. Train to run.

You would be well served to check out this page: http://www.runnersworld.com/subtopic...-258-0,00.html

Seriously though, don't do CFE. At all.

Chad Cilli · 09-30-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Weaver

Don't do CFE, unless you plan on not finishing your race.

What I would suggest. Train to run.

You would be well served to check out this page: http://www.runnersworld.com/subtopic...-258-0,00.html

Seriously though, don't do CFE. At all.

Thanks for the link, I bookmarked it. If you don't mind me asking, why don't you like CFE? I've never trained for a marathon, but I used to CFE to lower my 3 mile run for the USMC PFT, and my 5K went from 22:33 to 18:53. Certainly nothing spectacular, but I took nearly 4 minutes in about 3 months. I realize that's a comparatively short distance, but what is the shortcoming of CFE for longer distances?

Joe Hart · 09-30-2010, 10:58 AM

[quote= I realize that's a comparatively short distance, but what is the shortcoming of CFE for longer distances?[/QUOTE]

Let me state I am not a runner by any stretch. From what I gathered about CFE is that the guy who runs the site (BMac?) can't even finish races. I think it is because he doesn't put in the mileage, but that is my take.

Garrett Smith · 09-30-2010, 11:11 AM

Lift and run. Forget the metcons until you've reached your goal. You will be fine.

Brian Stone · 09-30-2010, 11:52 AM

i'm running a half marathon next week and have made excellent progress with 1-2 faster, shorter runs per week and one longer run mixed with weight training, judo, and some faster paced stuff and I've made great progress. Clearly if your goal is to run the best race possible and have a great time, relatively speaking, then you'll have to tailor your training down to be as run-specific as possible. However, I've made sub-2-hour half my goal at over 200 lbs while balancing plenty of other stuff and have had what I suspect is good success (we'll see come race day). Basically, it's largely dependent on your goals, time available, etc.

My guess would be that you'd obviously have to replace some of the Hybrid work with running, but in general you can do a balanced program that includes strength and metcon and still have success in the half.

Note: A full marathon may be a different story.

Chad Cilli · 09-30-2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrett Smith

Lift and run. Forget the metcons until you've reached your goal. You will be fine.

Wendler 531 was a great recommendation, Dr. G. I'm feeling really good on it. I can't wait till my foot is back to 100% so I can start some sprint work and prowler sled for my accessory work. I'm getting bored with air squats and pistols.

Derek Weaver · 09-30-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Cilli

Thanks for the link, I bookmarked it. If you don't mind me asking, why don't you like CFE? I've never trained for a marathon, but I used to CFE to lower my 3 mile run for the USMC PFT, and my 5K went from 22:33 to 18:53. Certainly nothing spectacular, but I took nearly 4 minutes in about 3 months. I realize that's a comparatively short distance, but what is the shortcoming of CFE for longer distances?

Like Joe said, CFE tends to = DNF. People that do CFE and excel were usually successful athletes to begin with. As is usually the case with CF of any "form".

It's been said all over this board on numerous occasions but: "Work capacity across broad time and modal domains" means that you'll probably not suck at anything, except whatever actually matters to your sport. Unless your sport is thrusters, overhead kettlebell swings, vomiting and rhabdo. Even that's questionable.

It's pretty out there to believe that one could be good at long distance endurance events while never running anything more than a 10k. And rarely at that.

If someone wants to be good at 10k and up races, they need a deep bank of work capacity in the actual "modal domain" required from which to draw and build. Not saying that every training run is going to be a marathon... that's stupid too. Keep the marathon for race day. But nobody became a world champion marathoner by doing Heavy Fran and 100m repeats with the occasional 5k or 10k thrown in.

I think I saw something by Joel Jamieson on his site noting that even in fighters, who have a serious anaerobic requirement, they need to do more longer distance, lower intensity work. Boxers have done this for ages. Sprint/speed work is important, but low intensity work is the goods for any sport requiring a sustained effort.

If a fighter needs that kind of base to build on, why wouldn't an endurance athlete?

/soap box.

Chad Cilli · 09-30-2010, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Weaver

I think I saw something by Joel Jamieson on his site noting that even in fighters, who have a serious anaerobic requirement, they need to do more longer distance, lower intensity work. Boxers have done this for ages. Sprint/speed work is important, but low intensity work is the goods for any sport requiring a sustained effort.

If a fighter needs that kind of base to build on, why wouldn't an endurance athlete?

/soap box.

Thanks Derek, that makes sense to me. I didn't know if you had a specific issue with CFE or just the programming as a whole. I know from my experience, the interval work improved my short distance runs, but I've never trained for a marathon. I can appreciate the boxing comparison though, I boxed for a few years (or perhaps I should say I boxed poorly for a few years), and it's amazing how much energy you expend in a 2 (or 3 for higher levels) minute round.

It seems like the general consensus here is that CF is bogus and only makes you better at CF. More of a training tool than a training program.

Geoffrey Thompson · 09-30-2010, 05:04 AM

The answer is probably, unfortunately, traditional race training. Now, if you just want to finish instead of doing well, there are semi-traditional programs (specifically, this one: http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...8257-0,00.html) that will have you on the road for fewer hours per week and will get you through the marathon in an okay time, but you shouldn't fool yourself into thinking you're doing the absolute best you can. But you can actually do pretty well.