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Old 02-24-2011, 02:15 PM   #1
Daniel Dean
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Default Need hybrid strength/endurance programming for skiing, running and mountain biking

My goals in a nutshell are to be as fast as possible running, on my bike and in the skintrack, while remaining strong and powerful enough to keep skiing like this http://live.tetongravity.com/_Wasatc...912/75233.html

I had been using Crossfit Endurance with good results, but after reading a lot of largely well-deserved criticism of CF in the "Crossfit sucks" thread I wanted to poll the collected knowledge here for training alternatives. Here's the full text of my post in that thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Dean View Post
As someone who found crossfit via a skiing forum reading this thread has been...interesting. I pretty much just read the CF FAQ, watched some demos and jumped in as best I could. Never been to a box. Thinking back I think I did read the article that started this thread, but at the time it didn't seem nearly as comical as it does now. Since Andrew wanted to hear from crossfitters (though I don't really consider myself one), here's my story:

About me:
Male
28
5-6
160lbs
Very unremarkable athlete in high school. I played football and ran track but I went to a very small school in a little hick town. I likely would not have made any athletic teams had I gone to a larger school. I didn't even like running at the time. I was on the track team primarily for the girls in short shorts and I sucked, like 75 second 400m suck. I got into trail running in college and have generally only become a better athlete as I've gotten older. Good skier, averaged 70-80 days per year '04-'09.

It was around early summer of '09 that I heard about the CF site and started trying out workouts, but I didn't have a barbell at the time and I did mostly just bodyweight stuff until mid november when I picked up a bar, plates and a rack off craigslist. I had gotten some rings a month or two previous to that. The BW stuff treated me pretty well. I developed a bursitis on one of my toes running the Grand Canyon double crossing in late May and ran very little afterwards that summer. When I started running again in the fall I was hitting near PR times on my favorite trails. Once I got the barbell setup I started following the CF.com workouts on the 3/1 schedule pretty consistently and scaled as needed. My first Fran was 13 minutes (97% of the time was spent on the thrusters, I had gotten pretty good at pullups over the summer).

As a ski conditioning program it worked out pretty well. My wife and I had a kid 1/13/10 and I skied a lot less than I had in previous winters. In the 08/09 season I used my Alta pass 52 days, 09/10 I used it only 16 days but when I did get out I was charging just as hard as the previous season (here's my helmet cam compilation from 08/09 http://live.tetongravity.com/_Wasatc...912/75233.html). Also, when spring mountain bike trips to Moab rolled around I felt far better than I ever had at the beginning of bike season.

I dropped the CF.com workouts in May in favor of CFE to train for a 50k I had planned for the end of July (Wasatch Speedgoat 50k, 12k feet of climbing at elevations of 8k-11k. Karl Meltzer designed the course and says it's the hardest 50k in existence. Since he's the current world record holder for 100-mile race wins I'll take his word for it). I followed their program closely, doing 4-5 of their S&C workouts per week, two interval workouts per week and hit the trails every saturday for a tempo on terrain similar to what I was going to find on course. When race day showed up I had the run of my life. I crushed my goal time (goal was <9 hours, I finished in 8:01. I placed 53/153 and there were at least another 50 who DNF'ed) and felt better afterwords than I ever have after an effort like that. I felt great, the rest of the day was just a typical saturday afternoon with the family. I had virtually zero DOMS the next day. Two days after the race I did my first Fran since my 13-minute effort back in November and finished in 4:48. I kept up with the CFE stuff through september and a friend and I did two other marathon+ runs in that time.

Never had rhabdo (though I have had some pretty severe DOMS a few times) and my shoulders seem fine. I did have to take 6 weeks off in Oct-Nov to heal what I believe was a stress fracture in my lower right fibula. I started noticing minor pain just above my ankle in early September, maybe even before, but I mistakenly ignored it until I took my son on a hike in the backpack in late September and it became clear that something was definitely not right. I never got a bone scan as it was a 5-week wait to get in, but a PT friend of mine agreed that my symptoms were consistent with a stress fx and I have had no problems after taking the 6 weeks off. Maybe it was primarily CF related, but my guess is that the 3 ultras in 6 weeks were the primary cause.

Just for the hell of it I decided to do SS for awhile starting right after Xmas and my lifts are all up quite a bit. 3x5 weights:
BS: 205->250
Press: 100->115
BP: 155->185
DL: 280->330
PC: 135->160

I should probably be cleaning more, but my only coaching has been my video camera and I'm sure my technique could improve a lot. I saw most of my gains in the first 4-5 weeks. Since then some business travel, visits from family and a bout with the flu have stalled things out pretty good lately. My plan was to keep up SS until the end of February then go back to CFE programming.

So, my question for you guys is what should I be doing instead? I have no unflappable loyalty to CF. I'm a skier, a runner and a mountain biker and I only care about improving my performance on snow and trails and CF has worked better than anything else I've tried so far. I think I'm done following CF.com. I've had doubts about the programming before (when I was following CF.com I once saw Cindy, Barbara and Angie come up in one 3-day cycle ). CFE has treated me really well though and their S&C programming seems a lot closer to what you guys are advocating; a lot more heavy work and mostly short metcons. I realize it won't make me an elite ultra runner but I'll never be with my build and I'm quite content with my Speedgoat performance. I have fairly competing training goals. I need mass, strength and power for resort skiing and DH biking, but also CV endurance for backcountry ski touring (essentially walking around all day with 20 lbs on your back and 10 more on each foot), running and XC mountain biking.

That got pretty long, I look forward to hearing your guys' input.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:18 PM   #2
Chris Butler
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I do R&D for a backcountry company. What I find helps me the most is Olympic lifts, heavy squats, strongman training and especially HEAVY sandbag getups.
I train everything EDT style.

This past summer I fractured my foot. I usually rely on mountain biking and hiking for my cardio. I did significantly less cardio coming into this season and I'm a whole lot faster on the skintrack than past seasons. As much as 45min. faster on "Worker laps".

I think max strength is the most important quality to train for followed by armoring.

Sorry, I don't know anything about Crossfit other than it's injury rate is obscene.
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Old 02-28-2011, 09:41 AM   #3
Daniel Dean
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Quote:
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I train everything EDT style.
I had to look this up. So it's essentially an AMRAP protocol using your 10RM and always staying well under failure? It seems like more of a mass-building program than strength one, I've never heard of a strength program that uses 10RM loading. Staley seems well regarded, but his website for the program reads like sites that hawk acai berry diets and similar crap. I'm also calling BS on his physics:






Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Butler View Post
This past summer I fractured my foot. I usually rely on mountain biking and hiking for my cardio. I did significantly less cardio coming into this season and I'm a whole lot faster on the skintrack than past seasons. As much as 45min. faster on "Worker laps".
Interesting. After two months of SS I have maintained pretty well considering that I have only been able to get out for one tour per week at best this winter (which has been pretty much my only cardio), but I am definitely not noticeably faster skinning than in years past.


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followed by armoring.
Armoring? If you mean adding muscle mass, at 5-6, 160 and <10% BF I already have all the lean body mass I want.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:31 PM   #4
Shane Skowron
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I've read this over but I'm not sure what sort of CV endurance you're seeking to gain. Is it for running, biking, skiing, all of the above? I don't see how you can gain CV fitness in all of the above without actually doing all of the above, in which case you might as well just train like a triathlete.
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:01 PM   #5
Chris Butler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Dean View Post
I had to look this up. So it's essentially an AMRAP protocol using your 10RM and always staying well under failure? It seems like more of a mass-building program than strength one, I've never heard of a strength program that uses 10RM loading. Staley seems well regarded, but his website for the program reads like sites that hawk acai berry diets and similar crap. I'm also calling BS on his physics:
I don't follow the "10 rep max" recommendations. For squats, deadlifts, presses, etc... I use my 5 rep max and pull triples and doubles for the PR Zone

For Oly lifts I pull a daily max, reduce the max by 20-30kg. for a 10min. PR Zone, add 10kg for another 10min. PR Zone., followed by 2 more PR Zones for assistance lifts.

I basically follow Staley's time recommendations with movements, sets, reps and working weight based on my own needs.

Density training isn't a Staley invention.

Quote:
Armoring? If you mean adding muscle mass, at 5-6, 160 and <10% BF I already have all the lean body mass I want.
Armoring isn't increasing lean mass. Armoring is loading the body directly to strengthen all the stabilizers. Bulletproofing if you will.

I feel it's the key to keeping me injury free in my 40's while I splitboard, mtn.bike, DH/FR, etc.. at high level.
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Old 03-01-2011, 01:55 PM   #6
Daniel Dean
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Shane - Sports get split up by season, skiing in the winter and run/bike in the summer. BC skiing is 98% walking so there is significant carryover with running.
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Old 03-07-2011, 11:41 AM   #7
Daniel Dean
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I didn't expect such a lackluster response, but in case anyone is still looking here's what I have schemed up. Going to go with Gant's hybrid progam for S&C (beginner version, I only have iron weights at the moment so power O-lifts and push presses seems prudent for safety's sake) supplemented with two interval workouts (one run, one bike), a speed run or ride (30-60 minutes @ 90% RPE) and a long run (2-6 hours @ ~75% RPE). S&C and endurance work will be separated by about 10 hours usually (one before work, the other after).

Weekly schedule should look like this:

M: S&C, run intervals
Tu: S&C
W: S&C, speed run or ride
Th: Off/active rest
F: S&C, bike intervals
Sa: Long run
Su: Off/active rest

It's pretty much what I did last summer for the speedgoat except 1) I'm doing Gant's program instead of the CFE S&C workouts; and 2) Doing one interval workout on the spin bike instead of running.
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