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Old 05-06-2007, 09:27 AM   #11
Gary John
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Got to put weight on the bar. I'm still "learning", but we are talking about lifting weights. Box squats help clean up some of the ugliness, there was weight on the bar.

Lifted with a strongman friend recently. He helped a little, with the obvious.
More weight kept fixing things. Too much rocket science and watching x-fit videos. Those crack me up.
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Old 05-06-2007, 10:29 AM   #12
Rene Renteria
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Thanks for the excellent comments and feedback. Great description and nice numbers, Pierre. Iím really doing this for posterior chain, and itís frustrating to not be getting much hamstring involvement.

When I widen my stance, think about shoving my hips back and letting more forward lean happen, I can feel the hamstrings work. It does feel, however, like my body is going to explode--super-tight--and itís harder to get OK depth. I hope that goes away with time. Iíll probably drop down the weight for a while to see how my back handles the change in leverage with more forward lean. Active pulling down with hip flexors gets the butt back; I can tell I havenít been doing this much.

I guess Iím aiming for something like this? (link to BS mpg video):
http://www.bsu.edu/webapps2/strength...ksquat.mpg.mpg

wider stance, initiate with and keep butt back, more lean, more vertical shins, not so much knee travel forward.

Gary, whenever I do RDLs I get wicked DOMS, which keeps me from doing them very much. Do you find that hamstrings adapt to the eccentric loading and not suffer DOMS so much with practice?

I, too, feel like I need weight on the bar but will try to work on air squats that are more like sitting back into a chair instead of that upright, more straight up and down pattern like in my BS video.

Thanks, again!
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Old 05-06-2007, 10:52 AM   #13
Gary John
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RDL's killing you could be a clue to other things. Everything kills me, and I just keep doing them until it gets better. Took two years to get the OHS to finally happen. I'm old, so the body has all these defense systems set up already.

Just recently, finally, my body gave up and let me drop into a squat during the snatch. I'll never pull of a Dimas, but I bet I throw farther than he does.
Watching a video of a perfect back squat or discus throw won't get you there. I watch throwers who are about 20 feet better than me, and see what they are doing.

Look up Dan's article on RDL's in GetUp. Sticking that chin out there like you are taking a punch is a clue.
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Old 05-06-2007, 08:57 PM   #14
Dave Van Skike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary John View Post
RDL's killing you could be a clue to other things. Everything kills me, and I just keep doing them until it gets better. Took two years to get the OHS to finally happen. I'm old, so the body has all these defense systems set up already.

Just recently, finally, my body gave up and let me drop into a squat during the snatch. I'll never pull of a Dimas, but I bet I throw farther than he does.
Watching a video of a perfect back squat or discus throw won't get you there. I watch throwers who are about 20 feet better than me, and see what they are doing.

Look up Dan's article on RDL's in GetUp. Sticking that chin out there like you are taking a punch is a clue.
Rene,

FWIW, I have buggered up knees and until about 6 months ago could not do a decent back squat to save my ass. Spent a lot of time working on "form" with light weights and for me....it was a total waste. I didn't get it until I loaded up the bar with about 80% of my theoretical max and just started plugging away..After three months of serious effort I'm about 80% of the way to my first squat goal. The only thing that has worked for me is frequent, heavy, perfect practice.

Working form with a light weight for much more than a couple, maybe three weeks is overkill..."air" squats are not squats and are not going to provoke your weak links to straighten up and fly right.

do it now...perfect it later.

Also DOMS on RDL is a sign you should be doing them....lots.

Do them heavy, for very low reps, say 3, maybe even doubles. Consider ladders. 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3.....
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Old 05-06-2007, 10:49 PM   #15
Pierre Auge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
Rene,

FWIW, I have buggered up knees and until about 6 months ago could not do a decent back squat to save my ass. Spent a lot of time working on "form" with light weights and for me....it was a total waste. I didn't get it until I loaded up the bar with about 80% of my theoretical max and just started plugging away..After three months of serious effort I'm about 80% of the way to my first squat goal. The only thing that has worked for me is frequent, heavy, perfect practice.
David,
no offense but that's irresponsible in Rene's case!

Quote:
do it now...perfect it later.
I can't believe you just wrote this!

Air squats are not back squats no, but back squats without weight are still back squats. Rene needs to stick to the weights he is at until he can do it properly. Once that is achieved only THEN move on.

MECHANICS then CONSISTENCY then INTENSITY

doing it the other way around is asking to hand yourself your own ass!

Yes, he needs to practice with weight but as I said where he is at, is not heavy... He is not even close to a max, or even mustering a guess at a max. Theoretical maxes are completely useless. Internet coaches are the worst, and I hate being one of them! Do yourself a favor Rene, get the form down, perfect practice makes perfect. With weight and withought. You need to continue on a linear strength cycle and try to improve your lifts exactly as you are and basically right out of Starting Strength. But do it wisely your ability to replicate the sensation of a laden squat unladen has value don't dismiss it. Dicking around at 80% of maybe perhaps max when you've not a clue what good form is - is well asking for trouble. Beyond that my best advice is get somebody who knows what they are talking about to actually watch you lift in person. Thats the best online advice you'll ever get!

Tip if your knees are stressed during the lift - you're buggering up the entire lift! You can tell this without any weight on your back... All of my clients can demo perfect back squat form with nary a weight on their backs (even the lady with no miniscus) - they understand what it "feels" like moving the body through the range of motion without the assistance of the weight. Performing a movement without the weight forcing you into the proper position is in fact much harder than letting the bar cheat you into position. An Elite weightlifter will always warm-up with a stick or empty bar before moving onto heavier things. Make the light weights look heavy and the heavy weights look light! - better yet make it feel the same. If you can't you aren't really ready! Do you want to be capable of it or do you want to be good at it? Thats the question.

If you don't have a coach expect the learning curve will be longer in time duration. Accept this and your progression will be effective without buggering yourself up!

30 seconds to describe it.
3 minutes to remember it.
30 minutes to understand it.
3 hours to perform it properly.
3 days to try some weight.
3 weeks to going heavy.
3 months to make progress.
3 years to get good at it.
Then you start!

Pace yourself, it matters! Take advantage of being a raw novice get those nice long slow easy linear progressions. Make them last as long as humanly possible, this will pay off in the end!

One last thing the forward lean if the bar is in the proper low bar position sitting on the rear delts below the spine of the scapula will give you a leverage advantage. If you look at a video of yourself in the bottom position your femur should be parallel to the ground the crease of the hip should be even or below the top of the knee (thats as low as you need to get here) and the bar directly over your feet. If you follow the initial directions you'll be good to go.
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Old 05-07-2007, 06:07 AM   #16
Allen Yeh
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Some great advice on this thread. Thanks!
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Old 05-07-2007, 06:34 AM   #17
Steve Shafley
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I can't say anything more. Pierre covered everything I could have said.

I do think the "strength as skill" mindset is a very useful one.
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Old 05-07-2007, 09:11 AM   #18
Pierre Auge
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thats because I'm pompous and long winded!
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Old 05-07-2007, 12:03 PM   #19
Dave Van Skike
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My experience may be different from others. I'll say what I know to be true for me. Form is relative like heavy is relative. Every time I get under the bar I'm working form, there is nothing else to work…when the form is solidified and good, and things are gettign easy then it's time to move up in weight.

Form is never down, it is never done and lifting an empty bar is not the same as 40 kilos or 100 kilos or 200kilos.
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Old 05-07-2007, 01:16 PM
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Old 05-07-2007, 02:07 PM   #20
Elliot Royce
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As a neophyte who's benefitted greatly from a competent coach, I entirely endorse the idea of getting really competent someone to watch you. It's worth travelling some distance to do so. It's funny: a fully certified trainer with his own gym came down to see what my coach, Gary Valentine, was doing two weekends ago. Gary stepped out of the room, and I said to the trainer," you're going to learn a lot...Gary knows exactly how to coach people without insisting on their learning by the book [Burgener workout for weeks and months till you're perfect]. He figures out exactly what's holding you back and then focuses on that while letting your other imperfections not get in the way." The trainer said, "well everyone does it his own way...I've been training people for 9 years and was responsible for the PT for an aircraft carrier." I didn't argue with him. He then went on to explain that he was unable to do squat cleans because of lack of flexibililty. Knowing how inflexible I am, I figured this was just an excuse.

Yesterday, I see the same guy and ask him whether he had learned anything. The guy broke into a huge smile and said, "absolutely...and now I know I'm not inflexible." He then went on to do some great squat cleans.

My point, besides getting yourself a good coach, is that there is no one way to do things. Clearly, loading a maximum weight on the bar and going for it come hell or high water is going to get you injured. At the same time, I would still be doing Burgener warmups and not squat cleaning if I had waited for perfect form. A good coach will tell you where you can move forward without risk on the weights and where you can't. For instance, because I'm now clean pulling properly, Gary says, go for it, do it until you can't do anymore. But on the snatch pull, he won't let me do it without him.

So I would come down somewhere in between and if you don't have a coach, I would definitely lean towards the more conservative until you are sure your form is right.
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