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Old 06-03-2007, 06:47 AM   #11
Garrett Smith
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The body is smarter and more efficient than most give it credit for???

You don't say... ;-)

When I was a carb-crazy lacto-ovo vegetarian triathlete, all I got for it was:
Fried immune system
Lost about 15# of muscle
Hypoglycemia
Holier-than-thou attitude (about diet and exercise)

I'm so glad I'm away from that now. I still bike and run (x/c now it's only hard and fast), and may enter some sprint tri's for fun in the future (so much for fun that I'll do them on my commuter fixie). I love training on low carbs, low food intake in general.

How long will this idea take to penetrate the endurance masses? At least it's out there for the smart ones to find/figure out...
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Old 06-03-2007, 07:46 AM   #12
Paul Kayley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
When I was a carb-crazy lacto-ovo vegetarian triathlete, all I got for it was:
Fried immune system
Lost about 15# of muscle
Hypoglycemia
Holier-than-thou attitude (about diet and exercise)...
Yes... but going to those extremes has rewarded you with the wisdom you possess today grass hopper!

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How long will this idea take to penetrate the endurance masses? At least it's out there for the smart ones to find/figure out...
Lets hope that the normal sea guls stay with their flocks... allowing the few Jonathan Livingstons among us to push our way forward, relying not upon talent or brute force, but upon the appliance of intelligence and a willingness to explore! Its a much more meaningful journey too!
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:06 AM   #13
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Thanks for posting the info Paul. I like what I am reading. I also really like the 2 a days with 1 day recovery. On the F, S and S I can train that way so it looks like I will adapt my schedule and work 2 on Friday and 2 on Sunday with some active recovery on Saturday.
The 2 a day theory does definately work, its been around for decades. One just has to read into how the best training results are elicited by the top swimming and running coaches through the years, the empirical evidence is there. What interests me is the question why? Yes, its reported to have a stronger long term impact upon gene transcription, but why? Could this be related to modern nutrition... are mutiple daily training sessions necessary because of the rapid glycogen replenishment techniques so often used by athletes, and would fewer sessions be called for to affect the same adaptive responses if a more 'normal' diet were followed?

I personally dont like having to train 2-3 x per day in the same sport, it just gets too boring. However, I believe that the same effects may be achieved by training just once per day whilst backing off (not totally laying off) the starches, and relying more upon hepatically controlled sugar levels and slowly replenished muscle glycogen levels. The signals should be the same - muscle glycogen levels are being regularly stressed, the rate of replenishment is barely matching the rate of depletion per cycle, therefore adaptions to conserve levels are initiated... that is - increased glycogen storage capacity per cell, increased mitochondrial reticulum density, increased membrane glucose transport capacity, improved capillarisation, and increased aerobic capacity to improve ATP yield per glucose molecule, etc, etc... blah, blah, blah..
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:52 AM   #14
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every one of your posts makes my head hurt. that is all.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:17 PM   #15
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every one of your posts makes my head hurt. that is all.
Every time I post, its because my head hurts!
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Old 06-04-2007, 01:39 PM   #16
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Every time I post, its because my head hurts!
It's ok Dude, let it go... we're here for you.
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:13 PM   #17
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every one of your posts makes my head hurt. that is all.
LOL! There's some support! HA!
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:14 PM   #18
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Paul-
I DO think you are onto something here. I think intermittent fasting can bring about some of these changes as well.
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Old 06-04-2007, 06:47 PM   #19
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Paul do you think that for the 2 a days to be effective they have to be the same sport? I know that Gordo Has had great results from his epic camps. He has also crushed some people that weren't ready but mostly they have had great results. I have had luck with 2 a days but in different sports.

Thinking about what we are trying to accomplish though it would make sense that you would have to work the same muscles that had already been depleted. I wonder if an AM run and a PM bike would be as effective as an AM longer tempo run with a PM fartlek / interval run? I will have to try and see how I feel after each.

My head hurts also but this is why I am on this forum the opportunity for intellectual growth is staggering. I am staggered just in case anyone wondered.
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Old 06-05-2007, 01:29 AM   #20
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Derek, I am glad you know about Gordo. He is an amazing example of what can be achieved in the endurance world with the application of what appears to be limitless enthusiasm. I'm not in touch with how Gordo trains today, although its probably very similar to previously if he's still pushing his 'Epic Camps'. He is a clear proponent of very high weekly volumes per sport, which works obviously. However, I suspect this is the long way around... for IM training reverse periodisation would likelycreate the same results if done correctly. Gordo is the first to admit that he only possesses modest talent as far as VO2max is concerned, but he has trained an ability to churn out work at a high relative % of his max for long periods, by maximising his muscular endurance capacities. If you read into his diet, which he also has nailed, you will see that he is very careful with his carb intakes, especially starches. He appears to get most of his carbs from fruits, veg, dairy, and fueling on the go using sports products.

I couldnt train as much as Gordo does, its too much sacrifice. Yes its highly admirable, but there is more to life than spending 8+ hours per day flip-turning, pedalling, and trail bashing. To me LSD training is like reading a long book from the beginning every day trying for longer each day to get further into the book in an attempt to near the end, when more can be achieved with the intelligent use of a book mark and a few fresh pages per day!

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Paul do you think that for the 2 a days to be effective they have to be the same sport?
For example, there is cross over (maybe 50%) from running to biking, &VV. But training at muscular level is highly cell specific, only the recruited cells will be affected.

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I wonder if an AM run and a PM bike would be as effective as an AM longer tempo run with a PM fartlek / interval run? I will have to try and see how I feel after each.
A 2 a day bike day, followed by a 2 a day run day, would work. Or a double short brick day... 90min brick am, 60 min brick pm ... would take some enthusiasm though! Alternatively, as I'm suggesting, train once per day in each sport, as many times per week as possible, at a high aerobic output, whilst monitoring your carb intake. (If training at this intensity for 6 S-B-R per week the body would be struggling to meet glycogen replenishment rates with a high starch diet anyway...thats why well executed tri training works so damn well!)
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