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Old 02-05-2008, 01:53 PM   #1
Will Moore
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Default Need a new strategy

Hello everyone, I'm new here and I'm impressed so far with the knowledge of those who have posted in these forums. For a little background on me: I'm 44 now and have been an athlete/fitness enthusiast for the last 25 years. I spent most of my adult life in the military (USMC and National Guard), after which I engaged in numerous blue collar labor jobs before stumbling into my current Information Technology job. Over the years I've been a runner, cyclist, boxer, bodybuilder.....not a champion in any, but good enough to place in most events. That said, I have also tried various dietary srategies as well. Back in the early/mid 80's when "ultra low fat" was all the rage, I gave that diet a try and liked it! It seemed no matter what I ate, so long as it contained no more that a gram of fat, would not contribute to body fat. Well, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". So that's how I ate for the next 20 years. I was extremely active during this period and never had a problem with carbohydrates. In fact, I would say they made up 80% or more of my calories. I seldom ate meat of any kind. All of my protein was from supplements: whey protein islolate, egg protein, casein, etc. Amazingly, I was able to add/maintain muscle with as little as 75 grams per day, all from supplements. As far as carbs were concerned, I didn't even worry about glycemic index....bread, pretzels, rice cakes, dry cereal...it didn't matter to me as long as it wasn't too sugary and had no fat. I was also using Intermentent Fasting before this was much talked about. I just felt better not eating all day long, and having one big feeding period at night. There was no scientific reasoning behind this, it was just instinctual for me. After my military career, I was a roofer, carpenter, and an artisan baker. All jobs that required me to do hard work for 9 - 12 hours per day. I would eat nothing all day, come home and change, then do an intense 30 -40 minute weight workout. I ended up finally eating around 9 or 10pm. Always the same food: a huge salad, giant protein shake, copious amounts of bread, rice cakes, pasta....well, you get the picture. I was the strongest and leanest I had ever been in my life. The combination of IF, constantly burning calories with high activity levels, followed by massive glycogen recompensation seemed to do the trick. Then one day, I bought a computer.....to make a long story short, I soon found I was quite gifted in all things computer and ended up being a programmer. I soon realized that I couldn't continue to pound down calories like before, no matter how hard I worked out, because most of my day was now spent sitting on my ass in front of a computer. Then, I started updating my nutritional knowledge. I soon discovered that all the new "experts" were condeming all of the ideas of the "experts" from the 80's. All of a sudden, it seemed everything I had been doing all those years was now wrong. I read all about the evils of processed carbs, the cornerstone of my diet, and the evils and dangers of ultra low fat diets. I went out and bought the Atkins book, Paleo Diet, Neanderthin, you name it. I was determined to give it a try. In fact, I have tried low carb, Paleo diets three times. Each time, I had to give up. I always felt great at first, mainly because I got to eat things I had denied myself so many years. But in the end, I always gained fat without the benefit of added muscle. In some ways, I felt better, but not enough to make it worthwhile. The reason for the fat gain was that I always eat many more calories on a low carb diet. I don't buy the theory that high fat food are more satiating, at least not for me. I could eat as much as 200 or 300 grams of meat protein and still be hungry. I would munch on nuts if I was still hungry as I did not want to go too high on meat protein....and yes, I ate huge salads as well. Later, I would go back to my high carb, very low fat diet. But with a difference: All the processed carbs were replaced with unprocessed grains: whole barley, oat groats, german whole rye bread, etc. Within a few weeks of this, the body fat drops and I soon find myself in 5% territory. I should be happy, right? WRONG! At the same time, I lose much muscle, no matter how much whey protein, egg protein, I consume. This is the way I'm eating now and I'm between a rock and a hard place. I don't want to go back to processed carbs and I don't want to go back to Paleo/low-carb if I can't gain adequate muscle and keep body fat down. I would love to make a Paleo diet work. I support the theory and logic behind natural, Paleo diets and I'm open to any and all suggestions to make it work for me. I need to gain back some lost muscle (was 175 lbs., now 160 about 5% bf) and would like to know the proper way to do this with a Paleo strategy.
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:37 PM   #2
Garrett Smith
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Will,
Please use paragraphs. It helps me a lot.

Write down a couple of typical days food when you were doing the unprocessed grains + Paleo-ish setup, including macronutrient breakdowns (protein, fat, carbs) to the best of your ability.

Also, what was your BF% before, when you were 175#?
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:34 PM   #3
Mike ODonnell
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Holy cow....I got dizzy trying to read that....

all I got was something about whey protein shakes and losing muscle. Hands down the best thing is whole food proteins.....all those shakes are not the same time released strategy that whole food takes to digest and assimulate...not to mention incomplete amino acid formulas that really makes your pee very expensive....

I'll try and go re-read that post later but I need a beer as all I heard in my head was your words but in the voice of the Ex nagging in one long run-on sentence....
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:15 PM   #4
Will Moore
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When I was at 175 lbs. I was still below 10%. I know when I'm at 5% because I know what I looked like when I was measured at 5% (underwater method, East Carolina University).

I never combined Paleo style eating with unprocessed grains. When I eat unprocessed grains, I eat very low fat, as in single digits. I estimate a total daily intake of about 2700 calories per day, and I still lose this way.

When I eat Paleo style, I basically eat a shit load of fish, some chicken, lots on non-starchy veggies, and a shit load of nuts/peanuts. I probably wind up with 3500 - 4500 calories per day but I can't help it, I feel like I'm starving on anything less. It amazes me that I don't gain more weight than I do when eating like that.
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:31 AM   #5
Allen Yeh
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Check this post out:

http://robbwolf.com/?p=71
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:41 AM   #6
Dan Heaney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Moore View Post
When I was at 175 lbs. I was still below 10%. I know when I'm at 5% because I know what I looked like when I was measured at 5% (underwater method, East Carolina University).

I never combined Paleo style eating with unprocessed grains. When I eat unprocessed grains, I eat very low fat, as in single digits. I estimate a total daily intake of about 2700 calories per day, and I still lose this way.

When I eat Paleo style, I basically eat a shit load of fish, some chicken, lots on non-starchy veggies, and a shit load of nuts/peanuts. I probably wind up with 3500 - 4500 calories per day but I can't help it, I feel like I'm starving on anything less. It amazes me that I don't gain more weight than I do when eating like that.
If you're still hungry on 2700 it's because your food choice arn't the best. I wouldn't eat a shit load of nuts. How about a few ounces? Increase your intake of non-starchy veggies. Eat a bag of broccoli, cauliflower or spinach with every meal you'll feel full. Throw a few apples in here and there.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:48 AM   #7
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Definitely read Robb's site.

You need more fat, from non-nut (or legume) sources. I'm not a big believer that people get all that many usable calories from nuts/peanuts, as they don't digest well (they're completely laced with fiber which we can't get through very well). I'd bet if you tried a meat + non-starchy veggies + good oils to get to 3500-4500 calories a day your muscle loss would stop and you would feel full.

Otherwise, I'd start thinking that you would need to measure your food to get a really accurate intake, or you might have a metabolic or digestive issue. But first, I'd say up your easily digestible fats.
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:16 PM   #8
Will Moore
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Thanks for the help guys. I'm reading Robb's website now. Just out of curiosity, does anyone else get too "skinny" on high carb, low-fat? All I ever hear is people bitchin' about getting fat on that diet. With me, it's just the opposite.
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Moore View Post
Thanks for the help guys. I'm reading Robb's website now. Just out of curiosity, does anyone else get too "skinny" on high carb, low-fat? All I ever hear is people bitchin' about getting fat on that diet. With me, it's just the opposite.
It depends on the type of carbs but even in my days of Flex magazine and such I'd still keep it at moderate fat intake ~30-50grams per day. I got down to 6% with the whole fasted cardio, body part workouts...etc I personally have always gravitated towards a higher bodyfat though. If you go by those bodytype things I'd be an endomorph with some meso traits.

You definitely sound like a ecto/meso mix.

As long as you keep sugar and fat intake down, and the high carb thing is working for you, with no health risks that you have found. I'm a big fan of do what works.


As an aside, when you did IF with Paleo type foods did you find you had really bad hunger pains outside of your eating windows?
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:41 AM   #10
Will Moore
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No, I have no hunger problems when eating unrefined grains on IF. In fact, I can comfortably wait till 11pm before eating anything. I have nothing but coffee during the day. Below is a pic I took a few years ago, I was doing IF but I didn't worry about glycemic index.....I could eat two loaves of sourdough bread and a box of pretzels, no problem.

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