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Old 02-08-2008, 10:21 AM   #31
Ben Moskowitz
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I couldn't agree more. My obsession and discipline drove me to a very shaky place... and once you're there it takes a whole lot of time and mental shift to get out.

As I write now, I'm happy and loving the intuitive approach. Hopefully this will stick with me, and I can keep my eye on the big picture so as not to stress.

"Stress: don't do it. It'll kill ya."
Not terribly helpful when you're stressed out.

I would say better advice is:
"Have fun. Enjoy life. Read a book, maybe even something light. Or watch a movie. Go *mindless* for a while."


This is probably self-evident stuff, but it's certainly hard to follow day after day ain't it...


I guess the only debate left is 1 cup of olive oil/day vs. 1 gallon of milk/day.
My current plan is 3 solid meals, protein+fat+veg. Maybe some snacks if I can bear it. Add to that a gallon of milk. That's like, 1500-2500 calories (skim vs. whole). If you are following the zone, that doesn't compute. That's like, all of your blocks. So it's like, doubling your food intake. It just doesn't make sense.
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:49 AM   #32
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I guess the only debate left is 1 cup of olive oil/day vs. 1 gallon of milk/day. My current plan is 3 solid meals, protein+fat+veg. Maybe some snacks if I can bear it. Add to that a gallon of milk. That's like, 1500-2500 calories (skim vs. whole). If you are following the zone, that doesn't compute. That's like, all of your blocks. So it's like, doubling your food intake. It just doesn't make sense.
Confused on the question itself....but if you double ALL calories (as in protein/fat/carbs) then you will get more fat than muscle...and then have to lean out again. If your goal is lean muscle gain....then up the protein, cut down on carbs (except pwo) and keep fat levels where you need to be to maintain performance/weight gain/activity level. (aka..the more you do...the more fat you will probably need...the less you do...the less you will need). Milk is good mass gain because of the balance of slow release proteins in the whey/caesin (whole, not skim)...but you can get plenty of protein from whole foods like steak, eggs, etc also. You don't need a gallon a day...maybe just a glass with every meal. As stated in another thread...personally I can't do it because of the mucus and breathing issues...but if I wanted to gain short term and didn't have a need to bike/run/play ice hockey/ or date...then I probably would do it...I found the ladies are not big fans of spitting up mucus every 5 minutes...

back to the zen side....2 cases in point...

- A BB guy I know...had emergency gallbladder surgery....haven't seen him in months....he went from a ripped 260lbs....to probably 210....I didn't even recognize him the other day. I bet he is seriously depressed about that size lost...and how quickly it happened....but as I told him, it was good to see him walking around and living and I am sure he has some better perspective on life now...

- 2nd case....I f&#^# up my shoulder and hand in one hockey game...bad full speed collision...and some guy not liking me too much and slashing my wrist....so for the past 3 weeks I can't raise a beer can over my head with one arm...and can't put any pressure on my hand with the other (can't even do a pushup)...so prob lost 5 lbs in the upper body....but life is always going to be full of those things and I no longer have my happiness tied to self image....5 years ago...seriously would be depressed....now...just smile and look forward to doing some pushups soon!
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:32 PM   #33
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Wow yeah, that's a great perspective. The whole body image thing can REALLY throw people for a loop. I know it did for me.
I guess if you really want to push, there's the "crossfit injury approach," which I guess would be pistols or some other skill/strength. And there's always flexibility to fall back on. It's tough to stay consistent with that one.

I guess right now, milk is cheap and easy, and I don't have to worry about protein requirements Meat ain't cheap. Although per calorie per dollar, olive oil is pretty comparable to milk. Nuts and nut butter, and even coconut milk, not so much.

The conundrum I have is the milk + squats routine, and 20lbs. in a month sort of deal. And that's with whole milk, an extra 2500 calories/day on top of your average diet. I mean, Rippetoe prescribes a gallon of whole milk/day, and he says stick to the program. It seems so simple, I just want to follow it.

I don't want to limit my gains (which I definitely was doing by being so obsessed, and not understanding calories and whatnot) but obviously there's little point in just getting fat.

Simple is good. Getting too fancy is tricky (and can be taxing).
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:38 PM   #34
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You can spend a month thinking about...or just try it and see what happens. Don't over analyze...just take action. You are allowed to make any adjustments you want along the way as you get a better understanding of how your body reacts to macronutrients..and then understand how to control it.
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:15 PM   #35
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agreed. The trick is to have a plan, stick to it, and then see what happens. Not to be running 5 hypotheses all at once and scrambling them together hour by hour.

I've got 5 gallons of skim in the fridge (a week is probably too small a time frame though). We'll see what happens.

Trader Joe's EVOO is fortunately cheap as well. So is peanut butter (while not paleo-friendly, it's super cheap, loads of fat, and some protein, if maybe high in carbs. I'll just shy away from the sugar-laden crap).

I think my previous foray into "high fat low carb" was just "serious caloric deficit" because I didn't know what I was doing and was obsessing, pidgeon-holing, whatever.



EDIT: Oh, and I love cooking to a (p-menu) recipe now, not some zone-dictated BS, with amounts that make sense based on how food is "packaged." And then eating to satiety, not blocks. I guess I have a good intuitive sense of proportions now after zoning for a while, so it's not even something worth thinking about. Of course, not having to cut fat is a plus. I can get back to that later.




Final Edit:
Here's Rippetoe's last word In bulking up (WFS). Pretty simple prescription I'd say; he really likes the milk = natural growth liquid thing, which sorta makes sense. Although I might've worked up "mass gain baseline + gallon o' milk = extra fat" over the past week, it sure beats the heck out of lack of calories. Of course, yeah, now I'll play around with it and see what happens. This is fun.
p.s. I love that the performance menu has ingredient overlap from issue to issue. You just go to the grocery store, pick some stuff, and cook several different meals.


I will say my adoption of the high-fat paleo diet has given me some wicked gas. Or maybe it's all the fibrous veggies. Or maybe both.

Last edited by Ben Moskowitz : 02-11-2008 at 08:45 AM. Reason: Realization
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:50 AM   #36
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OK, I think I've come full circle with this. I now value the slow, gradual accumulation of performance and muscle, not bulking up or cutting up. I value the Zen-like state that comes with O-lifting. Eating right, enough, but certainly not stressing over food (enjoyment is far better). Eating carbs only as necessary for anaerobic performance, and otherwise enjoying the slow, even-keel burn of fat for fuel. And by golly if fat doesn't taste good, what a "diet!"
Answers do not lie in 20 rep squats, gallons of milk, or extremity. Balance and "moderation (in the elite physical sense)" are key.

I guess it takes a while to truly get intuitive with things, and I probably have a long way to go.

My only (unrelated) question is how to perform anaerobic metcons with intensity, but not get caught up away from the balance? To spike the adrenaline, but not get carried away during the effort or afterwards?

MOD, what's your approach to your hockey games?


p.s.
My other resolution is to spend less or equal time on internet forums as in the gym. Mind and body balance is essential.

Last edited by Ben Moskowitz : 02-11-2008 at 08:55 AM. Reason: food
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Old 02-11-2008, 09:53 AM   #37
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MOD, what's your approach to your hockey games?
Just go out and play...not worry about what will or won't happen...don't worry about the score...just focus only on what is going on at that moment and what I need to do....as the moment keeps changing....most people call that being in the "zone". If you want 100% effort....have to stop giving energy to useless worries like any thoughts of "what if....". Just do what you need to do now....your body can do it...your mind is the only thing that holds you back. Chances are your performance in anything will always be best when you are relaxed and completely in that moment. Hence why I am a better golfer after 4 beers.....same muscles...same clubs...the mind just doesn't get in the way anymore.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:18 AM   #38
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Yeah I guess it's true for all sports, not just for O-lifting. I guess for O-lifting the "moment" is super-consolidated into like, 2 seconds.

Zen/"the zone"/calm and cool/being in the moment for all things.

The Peaceful Warrior is an awesome movie (I should read the book). I am now learning how to apply it to sport and life.
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