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Old 08-08-2008, 07:45 AM   #11
Pat McElhone
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Do "they" really know why acidosis develops in a hypoperfusion state? I do agree that the term "lactic acidosis" is probably out dated by the physiologists, but it is still used and recognized in patient care. The book qouted is one of the main text books in Pulmonary Medicine, 2005 edition.

Are you asking about CO2 effect on acidosis in a hypoperfusion state? I do not know the biochem off the top of my head (my last biochem exam was 10 years ago), but I can say from experience, that in a hypoperfusion acidosis, CO2 is not a factor.
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Old 08-08-2008, 12:46 PM   #12
Steven Low
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat McElhone View Post
Do "they" really know why acidosis develops in a hypoperfusion state? I do agree that the term "lactic acidosis" is probably out dated by the physiologists, but it is still used and recognized in patient care. The book qouted is one of the main text books in Pulmonary Medicine, 2005 edition.

Are you asking about CO2 effect on acidosis in a hypoperfusion state? I do not know the biochem off the top of my head (my last biochem exam was 10 years ago), but I can say from experience, that in a hypoperfusion acidosis, CO2 is not a factor.
Well, I agree with saying "lactic acidosis" in the sense that the acidosis accompanies the rise is lactate, but it's definitely not the cause (according to the stoichiometry & analysis) and such references have already been refuted in peer reviewed journals. Just saying..

Okay, with the CO2 I guess. Hmm, I guess I'll go look it up later.
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Old 08-08-2008, 02:53 PM   #13
Pat McElhone
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The point of my orginal post was a place for high intensity training (above "anaerobic threshold") for people whose lives really do depend on their physical fitness. It was not to discuss the roles of CO2, lactate or any other basic science. This is one point I believe very much it, but I do not want to see the forest get lost in the trees.
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Old 08-08-2008, 06:23 PM   #14
Liam Dougherty Springer
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Is it possible that improved neuro-endocrine response do to the high intensity anarobic training involved could prolong someones ability to maintain critical body functions in a state of stress and shock. I feel like I have read about similar hormonal and bio chemical reactions in both. I am probrably way off to the side here but the thread is interesting to me and it seems to be a highly relevent topic to functional training and longevity being that it may keep you alive under trauma.

That may also be exactly what Pat was getting at and it dosn't deal with CO2 saturation but... (shrug)

It seems like the end result is the same either way if the training allows you to be resistant to death when seriously injured.
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Old 08-08-2008, 07:35 PM   #15
Pat McElhone
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Steven,

There is no increase in CO2 in hypovolemic shock because there is no increase in metabolism. The acidosis is due to an imbalance between O2 supply and demand because of a decreased supply, not increased demand. In exercise or any other hyper-metabolic state (malignant hyperthermia, infections, seizures, etc) there is an increase in CO2 and the acidosis is a mixed respiratory and metabolic. Also, minute ventilation will increase due to pain from injury, cellular hypoxia, and an attempt to compensate for the metabolic acidosis and PaCO2 levels will actually be lower then normal.

Again, this is not the point of the post, but I have been thinking about your question.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:28 AM   #16
Jerry Hill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat McElhone View Post
The point of my orginal post was a place for high intensity training (above "anaerobic threshold") for people whose lives really do depend on their physical fitness. It was not to discuss the roles of CO2, lactate or any other basic science. This is one point I believe very much it, but I do not want to see the forest get lost in the trees.
Pat,
This is some quality information!
There are many folks who would benefit by hearing more from you about your experience.

The idea behind doing the interview with Greg and other experts was to increase awareness for those whose lives could depend on what type of shape their in.

Do you have any desire to put the heart of your thread together in an article?
I know at the least, it would help my cause here in Alexandria and I would distribute your info to the best of my abilities. I also think it has the value and potential to be a subject in the PM or CF Journal.

Thank you for what you’ve shared already and most importantly for your service.

In Strength,
Jerry
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Old 08-12-2008, 04:49 PM   #17
Pat McElhone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Dougherty Springer View Post
Is it possible that improved neuro-endocrine response do to the high intensity anarobic training involved could prolong someones ability to maintain critical body functions in a state of stress and shock. I feel like I have read about similar hormonal and bio chemical reactions in both. I am probrably way off to the side here but the thread is interesting to me and it seems to be a highly relevent topic to functional training and longevity being that it may keep you alive under trauma.

That may also be exactly what Pat was getting at and it dosn't deal with CO2 saturation but... (shrug)

It seems like the end result is the same either way if the training allows you to be resistant to death when seriously injured.
I do not think the compensatory mechinisms for neuro-hormonal, that is based on actions of either the nervous or endocrine systems. The cause of cell death is ultimated failure of the pumps that regulate chemicals going into and out of cells, cells swell and ultimately burst. I would bet that the mechanisms are intra-cellular and involve some type of adaption that allows cellular function to continue.

Also, a simular thing may happen locally in rhabdo. Rhabdo has many causes, but one is failure of the ion pumps to function, muscle cells swell, then burst releasing myoglobin into the blood stream. This could help explain the lower, incidence of rhabdo in fit people. I do not know this, just thinking about it.

Yeah, these thoughts have been in my head for awhile. I thought about submitting it to CFJ or PM. I am interested in getting this message out to the actual guys kicking down doors, not debating with a bunch of intellectuals about whether or not this is possible.

Thanks to the those who do show interest in this subject
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Old 08-20-2008, 07:38 AM   #18
Pat McElhone
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I feel the need to say the following: My posts are based on my personal opinions seen taking care of combat casualties, they are not medical advice. I also believe any high intensity training should be introduced very gradually, in measured increments, by a responisble individual. While, I do argue how high intensity training maybe useful, I also believe it can cause harm and even death.
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