Cordain response to Weston Price

[Craig Cooper]

I agree totally with Robb. Cordain's book is perfect for his target audience: the average consumer.

[Robert Allison]

Hi Robb,

Since at least part of your post seemed to reference my comments, I thought I would take a stab at clarifying things.

The issue of fermented soybeans came up because I was attempting to clarify what I understand to be the Body Ecology perspective on soy. I rarely, if ever, eat soybean (fermented or not). There is research that seems to indicate that an enzyme derived from natto may have cardio protective benefits, but I am not sure if just eating natto will deliver the same effect. In any case, it is not something that I have made a regular part of my diet; it is, shall we say, an “acquired” taste.

Although I have learned a great deal from Donna’s work, particularly in terms of digestive health and the importance of probiotics, my day-to-day eating is pretty far removed from BED. My meals tend to be higher in protein and fat, and when I am doing an IF feed meal, I definitely don’t follow the “80%” full rule

Is BED voodoo? I really don’t know--I guess it depends on how you define that term. I know that Donna has helped a lot of people with Candida and other digestive-related illnesses, and her protocol has also helped children with Autism and ADD/ADHD. In its emphasis on what works in the real world, BED can be likened to Metabolic Typing. To the best of my knowledge, there are no research studies supporting the principles of MT (correct me if I am wrong here). And yet, there are a number of trainers & practitioners who I respect (Charles Poliquin, Paul Chek, Joseph Mercola) successfully implementing MT in their work. While I recognize the necessity of research, I also value real world results, a “black box,” if you will.

Could these same results (or better) be obtained using The Paleo Diet? Perhaps, and that may already be happening. None of this is meant to be a slam on Cordain, nor were my other posts. As I believe I said, The Paleo Diet is certainly better than many nutritional books out there.

Yael said:

I think that all three books (Paleo Diet, Nourishing Traditions, Body Ecology Diet) despite their differences are awesome compared to the standard American diet...

I coulnd't agree more. At the end of the day, Dr. Cordain is who is he and Sally Fallon is who she is. I am sure that both have their adherents on this board and I am not really interested in trying to change anyone’s mind. Initially, I posted to this thread not so much to re-hash the Cordain vs. Fallon drama, but to discuss something more personally interesting, such as the ideal ratios of various fatty acids.

[Robb Wolf]

Originally Posted by Craig Cooper

I agree totally with Robb. Cordain's book is perfect for his target audience: the average consumer.

I was in fort Collins doing my research fellowship when the book came out. Cordain was a little crushed at how much science had been removed from the book to improve it's "readability". Although that is a bummer for us geeks, it almost certainly guaranteed that the book would sell well, which it did. And it's not like that science just disappeared! it is all on www.thepaleodiet.com for free!

Regarding that body of research...he has published on: autoimmunity, opthamology, dermatology, metabolism...I'm not sure how to convey this to folks who have not been in science before but you simply do not see this happen. Things are so specialized it is rare someone publishes across disciplines. The reason he is able to do this is because he is looking at problems in a way that offers insights largely hidden to people following standard scientific reductionism. Here is a great example that is completely ignored: Can H. sapiens survive on an all plant diet? The simple answer is without agriculture, no. Why? Looking at available foods and calculating the thermodynamic efficiency of gathering plant foods it is impossible to get enough calories...one must have dense calorie sources from animal foods to optimize return on investment with regards to foraging. The !kung tend to be fairly small and no one could figure out why. Robert Lee who studied the !Kung found that they live in a fairly marginal area and their smaller size accomodates a sparse and inhospitable environment. When the vegetarian debates rage no one ever attacks cordains data on this topic...they never look at the thermodynamic underpinning of our ancestral environments, never talk about optimum foraging strategy...never discuss any of the concepts or terminology of the SCIENCES involved in these questions! They look to isolated studies that lack any cohesion or underlying theory from which to assess pertinence or validity and launch sensationalistic personal attacks.

Does Crodain have the entire picture? No, no one does...but if you add in some sources like Lights OUT, Dr. Eades...Art devany you have a pretty complete picture AND enough contradictions among those folks to keep thinking and evaluating for years.

[Robert Allison]

Wow, I think we just had some kind of simultaneous post... I hope it didn't tear a hole in the space-time continuum or anything.

[Steve Liberati]

Originally Posted by Craig Cooper

I agree totally with Robb. Cordain's book is perfect for his target audience: the average consumer.

Funny, I didn't get that from Robb's post at all

Instead, I think the point of his post, a good one at that, is the criticism we hear against Cordain doesn't have a two legs to stand on and is entirely motivated by emotion (read: ENVY) WITH very little scientific logic to back it up.

Although I'm a member of the WPF, I think this clearly boils down to jealousy on Sally's part. Her article was in poor taste and completely off-handed in my opinion.
Best way to describe it: Like athletes who take great pride and passion in their work, everyone is fighting for that top spot on the hill waving the golden flag. Unfortunately for Sally, Cordain owns the "evolutionary diet" position in the mind of most consumers. In marketing terms, Cordain has a stronger brand name than Sally (actually no comparison) and the WPF. Hence, the reason for the attack. She's trying to knock Cordain off the top of the hill.

Shame on her. In fact, starting to lose respect for the WPF with these sorry ass book reviews. Wish they would concentrate more on your own work and less on others.

[Steve Liberati]

Oops didn't see Robb's follow-up before posting. Now my post looks as sorry as Sally's review, standing next to Robb

[Mark Madonna]

Love the Paleo Diet. Makes a lot of sense. Have not read anything else. I have been on the Diet for 2 years now about 80% compliant with calories, Beer, Ice Cream and Cookie Dough are killers. I actually gained 20 pounds, from 230lb to 250 lb, and have lost a little in the waste and legs. For some reason I feel lighter.

Anything diet or plan telling you to eat 25-35% protein by calorie is going to beat any other diet IMHO. I think Dr. Cordain has a challenge of try eating as many doughnuts as you can at one sitting and count the calories. Then wait 4 hours until your stomach clears and try to eat the same amount of calories of a lean protein, like chicken breast. I can do 3 chicken breasts and I am pretty close to full. Fun exercise (doughnuts taste good), it really hit me on the head.

[Robb Wolf]

Originally Posted by Robert Allison

Wow, I think we just had some kind of simultaneous post... I hope it didn't tear a hole in the space-time continuum or anything.

LOL! Yea...I had a buggar of a time getting that thing through.

Robert, appologies for my initial post...re-reading that i sound like an ass. Tired posting can be nearly as bad as drunk posting, sorry for the snarky tone.

[Scott Kustes]

Originally Posted by Robb Wolf

Does Crodain have the entire picture? No, no one does...but if you add in some sources like Lights OUT, Dr. Eades...Art devany you have a pretty complete picture AND enough contradictions among those folks to keep thinking and evaluating for years.

BINGO! This is the best statement in the entire thread. I've read Enter/Master the Zone, Lights Out, Paleo, PPLP, Art Devany's blog, everything posted on CrossFit, Robb's stuff, Dr. G's stuff, Weston Price, Anthony Colpo's stuff, etc. You take the bits from each that work through your personal black box and discard the rest. Paleo is an excellent foundation from which to start...from there you figure out what can work for you. Maybe it's raw milk, maybe it's some grains, maybe it's loads of saturated fat...whatever it is, there isn't a single one of those books that is my entire diet, but every one of them has contributed some and every one of them has something that I've moved past because it wasn't for me.

[Robert Allison]

Hi Robb,

No worries... it's all good.

After re-reading my posts, I realized that it might not be completely clear where I was headed, so I tried to put a little structure to my thoughts.

Ditto what Scott said... one of the things I like most about the PM forum is the openness and "absorb what is useful" attitude.