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Old 01-23-2009, 08:35 AM   #11
Dave Van Skike
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in that case you might read up on the hormonal fluctuation model, Rippatoe has a section in practical programming on it and there's some stuff out there written by Kilgore and Pendlay I think...It's a better "overreaching" model I think than a blitz attack initiated somewhat at random. similar to any of those big vol/big intensity programs like smolov there's a build up on the front and a taper on the backend.
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Old 01-23-2009, 04:41 PM   #12
glennpendlay
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The "hormonal fluctuation model" was something that I started thinking and planning as far back as when I was an undergrad at Kansas State University, I eventually did my thesis on this subject to prove it had validity, in fact the title to my thesis was "validation of a hormonal fluctuation training model".

The basic premise was that earlier research had shown that overreaching weeks followed by deload weeks were effective with some people in increasing performance, and the effectiveness seemed to be linked to a drop and then subsequent increases in test/cortisol ratio that occured within certain parameters, but no one had specifically studied what those paramaters were and how to target training to stay within them and get the supercompensation effect.

We used weekly blood draws and hormone level analysis to first establish what the effective parameters were, then discover ways to directly link the level of increase or decrease in hormone levels at specific times during a training cycle with modifications in the training intensity, in other words letting the changes in hormone levels tell us whether an athlete needed to increase or decrease training volume or intensity at that specific time.

We ended up being very successfull, and showing that the decision tree that we developed could consistently produce drops in test/cortisol during a 2 week overreaching period of between 10 and 25%, the levels determined to produce the most effective overreaching, then allow the correct de-loading to allow this hormonal ratio to not only return to normal but to actually supercompensate to above baseline levels by the competition date. We also showed that increased results at competition were very highly correlated with the success in controling the hormonal ratio during the training.

We also learned, IMO, a lot of other useful things about overreaching and deloading for strength athletes in this and subsequent studies by myself and by Michael Hartman, who is now a PhD teaching exercise phys at a college in Florida. Michael did some work with our model that looked specifically at the length of de-loading time and the ability of the model to work using controls other than hormonal measures, something that few have access to.

If anyone has any specific questions about this model of training feel free to contact me. I dont mind reliving the old days once in a while.

glenn
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:40 PM   #13
Dave Van Skike
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Thanks Glenn!
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:56 AM   #14
Robbie Bremner
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Glenn
could you send me through any relevant info you have on overreaching and the HFM from your thesis. Would be hugely appreciated. brem_10@yahoo.com

Thanks
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Old 01-24-2009, 06:31 PM   #15
Ben Shechet
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Glenn,
I'd also be really interested in reading the info you mentioned. My email is bshechet@princeton.edu

Ben
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Old 01-24-2009, 11:03 PM   #16
Steven Low
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If you wanna do it yourself look up the dual factor model of performance.

Bunch info on it on madcow's site in PART II:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...nts_thread.htm
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:43 AM   #17
Ben Shechet
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Yeah, I get the concept, but I want to take a look at the actual data and protocols that Glenn used.
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Old 01-26-2009, 08:18 AM   #18
glennpendlay
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The questions are general enough that it would take me re-typing my thesis plus a bunch of commentary to answer... Let me give you a bit of overview and then if anyone has more specific questions I will be happy to answer them.

Between Dr. Hartman and I we looked at both 6 and 8 week protocols. These involved a baseline 2 weeks, an overreaching 2 weeks, and then a deload of 2 or 4 weeks.

We used heavy daily lifting during the overreaching 2 weeks, and the hormonal measures caused us to either add or subtract 10% from the volume, with no change in intensity, after week 1. On subsequent trips through the program, a particular athlete would start with whatever their volume was changed to on the first time through... so first time through everyone started the same, and on subsequent trips through the starting point was customized. Not surprisingly, results were better 2nd time through as more people found the particular volume of training that produced results for them.

Deloading was less volume, not less intensity. So we still lifted heavy, just not as many attempts at heavy weights. We found that the first week of deloading was hell, as if the body somehow "geared up" for daily heavy training, and allowed us to gut it out no matter how crappy we felt, but as soon as the load was lifted, everything fell apart. Results were good after two weeks of deloading, but better after 4 weeks.

One observation was that for most people, the amount of training required for overreaching was more than what would have been guessed, more than what made a person feel like a walking bag of hurt. Guys ached, hurt, had trouble climbing stairs, and the hormonal analysis said they needed still more training to get into overreaching. The subjects in this study really all deserved medals. Oddly enough during the heavy training, guys were coming into workouts practically on hands and knees, and protesting that they could NOT be expected to do heavy weights that day, then slowly working up and ending up making PR lifts on clean and jerks or front squats. Very weird how the bodies reserves can be tapped.

I did observe that the ability to daily lift weights between 85 adn 90% of maximum was a pretty good measure that people were NOT training too hard, no matter how bad they felt. If a guy could not lift 90% for several consecutive days, or couldnt lift 85% for one or two days, it was likely that the hormonal analysis would come back and say they had done too much. So that level of performance seems like a good measure to pay attention to.

glenn
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:22 AM   #19
Steven Low
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpendlay View Post
I did observe that the ability to daily lift weights between 85 adn 90% of maximum was a pretty good measure that people were NOT training too hard, no matter how bad they felt. If a guy could not lift 90% for several consecutive days, or couldnt lift 85% for one or two days, it was likely that the hormonal analysis would come back and say they had done too much. So that level of performance seems like a good measure to pay attention to.

glenn
Good to know. That's the general anecdotal guideline I've been using for the past couple years.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:26 AM   #20
Ben Shechet
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Fascinating. Did certain lifts benefit more from the overreaching than others? My intuition would be that more strength-based lifts (cleans, squats) would benefit more from, or maybe be more tolerant of significant overreaching than snatches, as I know my speed is the first thing to go when I've finished a couple of heavy weeks.

And as far as the training protocol goes, I have some excel spreadsheets on my computer (I can't remember where I downloaded them from) that are titled "MSU Hormonal Fluctuation Research Model." There are three files, comprising 6 weeks of training. Is this the actual training model you used?
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