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Old 12-02-2009, 10:50 PM   #21
Derek Weaver
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That's a good point Steve. I kind of overlooked that comment.

Andrew,
Mind defining what "athletic capacity" may be?
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:22 AM   #22
Andrew Wilson
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Aren't you saying the same thing here with both statements. Doing more work faster in training gives me more athletic capacity so the work I do everyday is easier. Especially when I have to go to a fire.

I thought that was the point of work capacity? at least the need to increase it.
I'm thinking along the lines of Fran, or last week's video "What is CrossFit" video in the journal where he talks about using the Olympic Lifts and lifting sandbags into a truck:

In both cases you are doing the work faster, and are able to do more work in a time frame, but that doesn't necessarily mean the task itself is easier. Is a 3:00 Fran easier than a 5:00 Fran? You have greater work capacity in the 3:00, but it's certainly not easier... I recall being more wiped out after a 3:00 Fran the 1st time I did it, than a the first time I performed a 5:00 Fran. Talking about complete devastation with full forearm cramps and no energy to move with. But I had greater work capacity... + being totally wrecked. I also recall training through Fran and other General Physical Preparedness workouts and them having little effect on my front squat strength, vertical jump, clean and jerk, 400m time, 800m time, 1500m time, and I still couldn't jump out of a 3ft pool... ( haha) ..... I could sustain and survive the effort because of the conditioning, but overall speed and power wasn't benefiting (these ^ are what I mean by athletic capacity).

Comparing with an 8wk program then at the end perform Fran with ATG thrusters as a general unknown task:
8wks of highly diverse, if not random workouts based on functional movements.
vs
8wks of a decathlon like training with diverse sets in distances of 100m, 200m, 300m, 400m, 600m, 800m and tabata track workouts coupled with olympic weightlifting

I'd gamble an athlete that followed the bottom training would have an easier experience performing the unknown task, because they are the better prepared athlete with a stronger progressive development in leg, hip, and overhead arm extension power and more controlled CV adaptation. A GPP may perform the task faster, but the other would likely had an easier effort because they are stronger and more powerful, had more focus in specific energy system training, and also because of these, are more likely to perform another unknown task after it.
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:39 AM   #23
Júlíus G. Magnússon
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson View Post
In both cases you are doing the work faster, and are able to do more work in a time frame, but that doesn't necessarily mean the task itself is easier. Is a 3:00 Fran easier than a 5:00 Fran? You have greater work capacity in the 3:00, but it's certainly not easier...
You can make many trivial tasks grueling ones that leave you gasping on the floor by going at them with 100% effort but when you have the capability to do a 3:00 Fran, a 5:00 Fran becomes easier than when it is a max effort. So yeah, it does make the task easier in essentially two ways: 1) Fran in 5:00 is not going to leave someone with a 3:00 Fran lying on the floor gasping for air for five minutes and 2) previously a 3:00 Fran would have been impossible for that particular person, now it's possible.

Similarly, a 100kg front squat might be a maximal effort for some people. Getting their front squat up to a 150kg is going to make that 100kg front squat a cake. However, the 150kg max effort front squat will probably wreck them in just about the same way the 100kg front squat did back when that was their max effort.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:23 PM   #24
Steve Forman
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson View Post
I also do not understand the focus on work capacity, in doing more work, faster. Why not focus on building greater athletic capacity so more work can be done easier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson View Post
I'm thinking along the lines of Fran, or last week's video "What is CrossFit" video in the journal where he talks about using the Olympic Lifts and lifting sandbags into a truck:

In both cases you are doing the work faster, and are able to do more work in a time frame, but that doesn't necessarily mean the task itself is easier. Is a 3:00 Fran easier than a 5:00 Fran? You have greater work capacity in the 3:00, but it's certainly not easier... I recall being more wiped out after a 3:00 Fran the 1st time I did it, than a the first time I performed a 5:00 Fran. Talking about complete devastation with full forearm cramps and no energy to move with. But I had greater work capacity... + being totally wrecked. I also recall training through Fran and other General Physical Preparedness workouts and them having little effect on my front squat strength, vertical jump, clean and jerk, 400m time, 800m time, 1500m time, and I still couldn't jump out of a 3ft pool... ( haha) ..... I could sustain and survive the effort because of the conditioning, but overall speed and power wasn't benefiting (these ^ are what I mean by athletic capacity).

Comparing with an 8wk program then at the end perform Fran with ATG thrusters as a general unknown task:
8wks of highly diverse, if not random workouts based on functional movements.
vs
8wks of a decathlon like training with diverse sets in distances of 100m, 200m, 300m, 400m, 600m, 800m and tabata track workouts coupled with olympic weightlifting

I'd gamble an athlete that followed the bottom training would have an easier experience performing the unknown task, because they are the better prepared athlete with a stronger progressive development in leg, hip, and overhead arm extension power and more controlled CV adaptation. A GPP may perform the task faster, but the other would likely had an easier effort because they are stronger and more powerful, had more focus in specific energy system training, and also because of these, are more likely to perform another unknown task after it.
Andrew, I dont want to say that I disagree with you, but you stated earlier that you didn't understand the whole "work capacity" Thang (paraphrased). I agree a 3 min fran is no easier than a 5 min fran. But someone that is working out to take their 5 min fran and make it a 3 min fran is increasing there work capacity. At the point they need that capacity in real life they should have it. It should be easier than before. In that case increasing work capacity benefits them in other realms.

Also the two workout regimes that you use above, I would argue that both would would have the possibility of increasing work capacity if you trained that way. Meaning pushing the workout for faster times or more weight. Yes I agree that one might be better. But, either way the bottom line for me is I train to increase work capacity not so that fran is easier but that fighting a fire, or climbing a mountain or anything i need to do easier than it ever was before. Shoot if fran ever becomes easy I'll add more weight and make it harder. but, Im not doing fran, I like cindy she's prettier.
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