Where to Start? - Page 2

Pat McElhone · 03-08-2010, 11:56 AM

Weighing in on the whole how high to swing the bell.

I think the best answer is to just lift the bell with a hip snap and let it travel however high it goes. It is all in the concentric and eccentric phases of the hip snap

CFish "American" Swing encourages people to use their arms. When people use their arms to pull a KB (or DB, plate, sandbag) whatever overhead, they are missing the entire point of training with a kettlebell.

DB Swings overhead for high reps is a good way to get someone to breathe hard, but again, breathing hard is not the main point of KB lifting.

Derek Weaver · 03-08-2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat McElhone

Weighing in on the whole how high to swing the bell.

I think the best answer is to just lift the bell with a hip snap and let it travel however high it goes. It is all in the concentric and eccentric phases of the hip snap

CFish "American" Swing encourages people to use their arms. When people use their arms to pull a KB (or DB, plate, sandbag) whatever overhead, they are missing the entire point of training with a kettlebell.

DB Swings overhead for high reps is a good way to get someone to breathe hard, but again, breathing hard is not the main point of KB lifting.

This is it right here.

I spent some time working with a IKFF trainer drilling the swing along with the competition lifts and he pointed out that the swing should basically go as high as your hips will force it to go. It's not an arm exercise.

If you can legitimately snap your hips to get a KB overhead with no arm involvement other than to keep the 'bell from flying through the wall, you need a heavier bell.

I think the RKC makes a point that the bell should be actively pulled down when it gets to sternum height or so, by engaging the lats.

GS swings are different than RKC style swings on a couple fronts, but the basic premise is still the same.

James Evans · 03-09-2010, 06:21 AM

Thoughtful answers and what I expected. I completely accept that the swing should be driven from the hips and not muscled up with the arms. Teaching people to db swing properly really helps them to understand db cleans and snatches (and to a point push presses). The idea of not using the arms for everything is quite alien to some trainees.

I wanted to check that this wasn't purely an anti-CF prejudice (accepting the appalling shortcuts that are employed to achieve a given task).

However, I still don't see the problem with swinging to above head and recruiting the upper body to complete the movement.

Quote:

DB Swings overhead for high reps is a good way to get someone to breathe hard, but again, breathing hard is not the main point of KB lifting.

Why are DB swings an appropriate tool for conditioning (breathing hard) and not KB swings?

If I throw a DB for distance, am I missing the point of DB lifting?

If I put one end of a barbell in the corner of a gym and perform FCTs, am I missing the point of barbell training?

If I clean a medicine ball, am I .... oh, hang on, scratch that.

Who defined the main point of KB lifting? The RKC? The IKFF?

It's a tool. And a very old one at that. Damn, if you want to curl the thing, do so. I love kettlebells but I dislike the mystical significance invested in their form.

I am playing devil's advocate now so don't take anything I've said personally. Besides, the dawn of the vIpr makes this all obsolete anyway.

Pat McElhone · 03-09-2010, 07:09 AM

[quote=James Evans;72325]
Why are DB swings an appropriate tool for conditioning (breathing hard) and not KB swings?
QUOTE]

I do not do KB swing to just breathe hard. If the goal is to just breathe hard do burpees and or sprints.

I use KBs to work hip extension in a dynamic, ballistic way. I place value on training the muscles in this area and nothing works this area better then KB swings using KBs.

I use specific tools for specific goals.

Mike Kerce · 03-09-2010, 07:12 AM

James - my reason, as a complete novice to the KB, is i just don't like it. i feel like i can FAR more effeciently swing "Russian" style and can keep up a pace and uniformity that way. I can't get a rhythm overhead nor keep uniformity if i'm using, say, a 24kg bell, yet i can do so with a Russian swing with the same weight. I basically don't see the point in my training of incorporating above the head swings. maybe i'm just missing it.

James Evans · 03-09-2010, 07:29 AM

Mike, that sounds fair enough to me.

James Evans · 03-09-2010, 07:59 AM

So Pat, we've established:

1. DB Swings overhead for high reps is a good way to get someone to breathe hard, but again, breathing hard is not the main point of KB lifting;

2. You not do KB swings to just breathe hard;

3. If the goal is to just breathe hard do burpees and or sprints;

4. You use KBs to work hip extension in a dynamic, ballistic way;

5. Nothing works better for promoting dynamic, ballistic hip extension than KB swings using KBs;

6. You use specific tools for specific goals.

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Dr. Peter Venkman: What?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why?
Dr. Egon Spengler: It would be bad.
Dr. Peter Venkman: I'm a little fuzzy on the whole "good/bad" thing here. What do you mean, "bad"?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr. Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal!
Dr. Peter Venkman: That's bad. Okay. All right, important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

Allen Yeh · 03-09-2010, 09:05 AM

I don't know about all that stuff...I like KB's for conditioning I just don't like using my arms for swings and I don't like teaching swings above shoulder height because it encourages arm use.

That logic seems silly:

Since sledgehammers are used to drive big spikes in the ground...I guess I shouldn't be using that for conditioning?

James Evans · 03-09-2010, 09:10 AM

It's certainly a conundrum Allen.

Pat McElhone · 03-09-2010, 09:29 AM

James,

Do you think swinging a DB overhead, let's say 5 Rounds for time of 50lbs DB, 50 swings, then doing 50 sledgehammer provides any specific/unique training stimulus? Or is the training stimulus global (Cardio-Respiratory)

I would say the point of the above couplet is to provide a global training stimulus. Swinging a bell overhead, swinging a sledgehammer against a tire (not a spike) provides little specific stimulus, but creates enough of an oxygen need to work the CR system. But if the whole point is to just work the CR system, other then to prevent boredom, why not just do sprints and burpees?

Pat