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Old 05-11-2010, 10:13 AM   #11
Chris Butler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissim Connery View Post
in terms of over the shoulder throws w/ boulders, i think you could get those benefits more easily with OL....that is unless you're looking to suplex somebody....in which case go forth...i am all for suplexes...
I've found the explosiveness of being able to let the stone fly very beneficial. Similar to Vasily Alexeev Snatching and letting the barbell fly over his head or kettlebell tosses. It's just about follow through of acceleration.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:37 AM   #12
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Kevin, I'm just popping in. You're in a good position right now. I agree that pulling strength could come up. So could pressing. Don't get too caught up in strength, though. I'm a lot stronger than Derek Simonds, but I give him little trouble on the mat. Look at his log. And look at Grissim's stuff.

Also, if you're going to play with weight classes, do it as a purple belt (not as a brown or black).

8weeksout is great (I have the book), but BJJ is not MMA. So be selective.

At this point, your S&C should complement your mat work. The object of your conditioning is to allow you to roll at high intensity the entire class. Get extra sparring sessions in if you can.

5/3/1 is great for grapplers because it's so flexible. I have put several people on this program:

Mon: power snatch, squat*, press*; Tabata Airdyne
Tues: Barbell complexes, sprints
Thurs: power clean, bench*, deadlift*
Fri: plyo work, prowler or sprints
Sat: odd object conditioning- tires, sledge, boat rope, sandbag, etc.

*5/3/1

You can tweak it or go to one-a-day. I wouldn't get bogged down with assistance exercises unless it's bodyweight stuff.

If you want a better grip, you need to practice grip fighting in the gi. Few BJJers do this. It will improve your grip strength and endurance, and it will put you in a better position to throw.

IMO, you don't need any extra rotational work for throwing. You need to practice throwing. It's a matter of footwork, coordination, elbow position, placement, and hip rotation. I get uchi mata or harai goshi regularly on the 250+ guys in our club. Getting your opponent off-balance is far more important than rotational strength (which you'll get plenty of if you practice throwing). Position before submission applies to standup, as well.

I don't see the utility in over-the-shoulder throws over the Olympic power variants unless you're one of the 90+kg players that likes to throw a high amplitude double-leg (see Rhadi Ferguson in Abu Dhabi). Also, you don't suplex somebody (at least not B2Back) by throwing them over your shoulder. You do it by moving their center mass (~hip) from your hip to your shoulder (basically a hang power clean). If you can "rack" a guy's back/hip at chest level and put your shoulders on the mat with some velocity, his back and shoulders will follow in violently spectacular fashion. I knocked a guy out a year ago with a belly to back; guy landed on his upper back. It's all mechanics.

This isn't to say over-the-shoulder or throwing stuff is bad. You could do quite well only working on the second pull (hang power versions). But the third pull comes in handy on kata guruma, seoi nage, some some sode makikomis. You won't do much with the first pull unless you're Karelin.
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Last edited by Gant Grimes : 05-12-2010 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:02 AM   #13
Derek Simonds
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Kevin I just read through all the posts and I agree with Gant completely. In fact so much that I might change my current 5/3/1 routine to one that matches what he laid out.

I have been on 5/3/1 for the last year, the flexibility of it keeps my strength high and going higher all the time and it lets me adapt to how I am training. This week I am training for 2 to 2:30 a night plus a tournament on Saturday all as prep work for my big tournament of the year on the 22nd. I did FS and Press on Monday with no assistance work and I will bench and DL tomorrow. Other than that it is all about BJJ.

I came at this whole deal from a triathlon background and was weak as circus lemonade. I did have some serious work capacity though and that is what got me through my first year grappling. I am back to thinking that I need to add back in LSD after ignoring it for the last couple of years.

Where do you train? I fought in Grapplers Quest a couple of weeks ago here in Orlando. It was truly F'ed up and I hope that your tourney doesn't have the same problems this one did!
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:58 PM   #14
Grissim Connery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gant Grimes View Post
Also, you don't suplex somebody (at least not B2Back) by throwing them over your shoulder.
i was just messing around. the only time i could really think of maybe letting somebody fly over my shoulder is in a suplex, and then i just wanted to post that video up.

one of these days i'll actually go for a suplex, and it will be awesome! one of these days.....

luckily i only do BJJ tournaments, so most people have bad takedowns anyways. people sometimes think i have good takedowns, when the bitter truth is that mine are just kinda bad, while other people's are really bad.
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:06 PM   #15
Gant Grimes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissim Connery View Post
i was just messing around. the only time i could really think of maybe letting somebody fly over my shoulder is in a suplex, and then i just wanted to post that video up.

one of these days i'll actually go for a suplex, and it will be awesome! one of these days.....

luckily i only do BJJ tournaments, so most people have bad takedowns anyways. people sometimes think i have good takedowns, when the bitter truth is that mine are just kinda bad, while other people's are really bad.
From what I've seen, you (BJJ guys) could get a real advantage in the standup game just by working on gripfighting. I worked a bit with Derek on this, so he'll have a better opinion. The guy I do BJJ with (when I do it) is a judo brown belt, and all his guys start their matches with a throw and transition into a dominant position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl5l-YELUls

You probably don't get that many opportunities to suplex people in BJJ (although you could do a Karelin Lift).

I made the distinction on the over-the-shoulder stuff because a lot of bigger guys finish their double by just flinging the other dude (smaller guys pinch the legs and get the low takedown to avoid their opponent turning out).

Here's what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGDKed0c3WE
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:55 PM   #16
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this actually looks like a really good summer project for me. i was planning on developing my omoplata setups, but this could be more valuable.
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:10 AM   #17
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I am not that familiar with 5,3,1 program. Do you mean 5 reps, 3 reps, 1 rep? I followed a program close to that a few years ago and was having good success. Did 5,3,1 of an exercise adding 10 pounds after each set. The next time I did the same exercise I did 7 reps, 5 reps, 3 reps with the same weight. The next time I did the workout I would be back at 5,3,1 but start at 10 pounds more than I did the first time doing 5,3,1.

I honestly don't worry a ton about gi grips because I am not into gi competition. I do it to help me get better at no gi. I am way more successful at no-gi competition. It is more natural for me and I just enjoy it more. That is why I want to compete in the ADCC Championships eventually. I am not against competing in the Mundials I just really like no gi.

I am not to worried about cutting down to 190. I have been there before and I tend to only get better at bjj when I get towards that weight. I am able to move a little quicker and my gas tank gets even better.

I am have wrestling experience as well so I don't worry that much about the stand up part. I have wrestled with some really high level guys and held my own. If someone is a lot better I transition to the good old but scoot attack. My butterfly guard is one of the best parts of my game so I do just fine if I but scoot and eliminate the chance of getting taken down by extremely good stand up guys.

Derek I train at The Lab in Glendale Arizona. Ben Henderson fights out of our camp and Efrain is training here for his next fight. I have competed in grapplers quest before and have had tons of problems with the way they ran it but it has all the best no gi grapplers so I have little choice. The Grapplers Quest will be in vegas so we will get a lot of good competitors from california, and I know Mark Laimon's guys usually come up.

Gant I am certain I need more pulling strength. I don't care to suplex people because it generally takes more energy than it is worth but strong deadlifts help with finishing most takedowns. I have shorter legs and a longer torso which makes my deads lower than my squats. I do agree though that I don't want to be super into strength. I need to make sure I am conditioned enough to continually use my strength. I also need a lot of help with building explosive power. I am more of a grinding competitor because I don't do well with explosive movements. I don't own bumpers which makes olympic lifts more difficult. I built a olympic lift platform similar to this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rvPYabrD_A and it works decent for dropping metal plates. I also have difficulty with snatches because I find they put a ton of stress on my wrists and when combined with my grappling schedule I start to develop tendonitis and pain all over the wrist area.
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:45 AM   #18
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Jim Wendler's 5/3/1

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a..._pure_strength
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Old 05-23-2010, 02:50 AM   #19
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Hey guys what are your thoughts on fitting the 5/3/1 workouts in around BJJ training as far as timing?

I prefer to go in for a separate session but as far as scheduling it is sometimes super convenient to hit a heavy weight and then go to a class. I go to 1 hour morning BJJ classes at my gym which thank god are more focused on technique and not running around doing a million high rep sets for "cardio".

Of course it depends on how intense the class is so that can be an unpredictable variable, but IMO as long as you aren't overdoing it, a 5/3/1 session on the brief side then a BJJ class can work out well.

Thoughts/experiences?
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Old 05-23-2010, 04:39 AM   #20
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I started to type that I have never done it that way but I do quite often. If I am working out on Saturday morning I will train 5/3/1 and then go to BJJ. Saturday is most often DL day and after a 5/3/1 DL session I am not the quickest on the mat.

I would like to try it and see how it worked for me but no week day morning classes are available.
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