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Old 08-19-2010, 02:21 PM   #21
Robb Wolf
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[Robb, we've talked about this multiple times. I think as an athlete, especially a highly motivated athlete working towards a goal, there is a certain unexplainable willingness to follow a coach's programming. I realize that training for health and fitness is something that needs to be adjusted carefully, shorter met cons, more focus on strength work, more recovery time.

But how should one prepare for "endurance" type training schools like SFAS, Ranger School, RIP, Q course, BUD/S, etc.? Is there a certain level of overtraining that would provide sort of a "hormesis" to protect the body during those courses? Is it even possible to avoid overtraining while going through such a course?

I know Poliquin has spoken about what he calls "super accumulation" where you overtrain purposely and then when you take time off your body over compensates and you supposedly gain more strength, endurance, etc than you could on a linear training plan, but I've never witnessed nor experienced that.[/quote]

One trains in such a way as to make it TO the desired event (BUDS?) then COMPLETE it. Not end up sidelined due to injury and China-Syndrome type systemic failure. Chad, in your description above you described something like this: "Sept-November I did great! Then in December I blew up all of a sudden...WTF?"

Your Accumulation block never ended! Did you incrementally increase mileage and loading? In that accumulation block did you wave load that stimulus over the course of time or was it a balls to the wall emulation of 4-5 different websites of training?

Here is a nice real-world example: We started working with Glen Cordoza 4+ years go. We could not get Glen INTO the ring for almost a year because he shit the bed on recovery, did not sleep and would sneak in training when I told him to go home and rest. I finally kicked him out of the gym and only allowed him back with the understanding that if he did not do it 100% my way he was done. The bulk of his training was simply fight prep with power variants of the OL's, some gymnastics and a few odds and ends. When his sleep suffered to it was particularly hard to warm him up all he did that day was an EASY (2:00-2:10 500M pace) 2-5K row, foam roll mobility then go home. the result was not only did Glen show up for game day, he actually won! He generated some pretty impressive gym numbers (130kg PC+Jerk) 105kg PS) and a 435 Fight Gone Bad with PERFECT form. No 20% slop there!

When CrossFit first hit the BUDS community the O-course and PT scores improved. Medical outs decreased. That's a fact and no matter my feelings about the Despotic Turds who run that show it helps people when applied properly. But people were tackling things in a much different way than they are now. people are shitting the bed, and in an epic fashion. That's just on the task completion side of this, we are nto even talkign about the damage they are doing to their endocrine systems.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:09 PM   #22
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I think we'd all agree, though, that if it's 70% when it could be 30%, there's some malpractice going on. The boot camp example is egregious. But it's hard to tell if 30% is good or bad.
Wait, you mean I could be injuring nearly a third of my clients and still be considered a good trainer? Damn, I'm trying waaaaaay too hard then.
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Old 08-19-2010, 06:26 PM   #23
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Hey guys, thanks for the responses, I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me.

Garrett, thanks for the study. I'm a stress ball by nature, so I guess I have the deck stacked against me in the first place. I can understand how a protocol like CF with its constantly changing stressors is probably only exacerbating the issue.

Robb, after we talked in March, I stopped training, took time off to recover, waited till I started sleeping normal again, and then when I resumed training I scaled everything way back. One long run or swim a week, kept metcons under 10 minutes, and changed my focus more towards steady PT like sets of pushups, situps, and pullups with rest between sets. I even stayed away from my usual pitfalls like multiple workouts per day. I'm not sure what constitutes as wave loading, but I tried to increase the reps or the distance just a little every other week.

I guess the thing that is bothering me and I can't seem to wrap my head around is that I never got back to full bore training after December. I developed the stress fracture in my tibia running a whopping 3 miles a week in March, took off till the last week of April, got the clear from the doc, and then a month later broke my foot running a grand total of 2 miles per week. I'm just, for lack of better phrasing, blown away at the very fact that I could get injured doing relatively little training. Could I have set my body back that far from the training Sept to Dec that I'm still not recovered this far out? Could I have broken down my bones and tissue to such a point as to have created long term damage?

What you've told me you've done with Glen is just one of the many reasons I'm dying to come out and train with you. CA needs to get their damned budget together so CSU can start accepting out of state grad students. I'm starting to think maybe I'm not capable of coaching myself. I can see it in the athletes I coach when they're starting to wear down, but I've developed a bad habit of blocking out what my body is telling me, and clearly it's not working in my favor. But I swear, I'm trying like hell to pull it all together. I know I'm failing, but it's not for lack of effort.
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:27 PM   #24
Steven Low
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It's pretty hard to push yourself into significant detrimental effects from overtraining, but it seems like you could have done it.

MOst chronic overtrainers go to the gym for like 2-3 hours at a time.. maybe 6-7 days a week.

That's not as heavy a burden as you would get if you did multiple workouts a day though. It's much more taxing doing that because you can "refresh" then come back harder. Single sessions are quite self limiting to some extent.

In fact, that's pretty impressive that you could beat yourself way far down in <4 months like that. You must have had some preexisting conditions or likely a combo of multiple workouts a day plus some poor nutrition and/or poor sleep and overstressing from other stuff.

Seriously though you need to take off for like 4-5 months like I did.
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Old 08-20-2010, 05:31 AM   #25
Geoffrey Thompson
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Wait, you mean I could be injuring nearly a third of my clients and still be considered a good trainer? Damn, I'm trying waaaaaay too hard then.
Well, it really depends on what's being counted. I just don't know. How many of your clients get a case of tendinitis or other minor dings related to chronic overuse every year? 1/3 might be a little high, depending on the sport and type of training. If you're training recreational runners, I do think 1/3 would be a good injury rate. Anything else, I just don't know. IME, as somebody who does strength training, one case of tendinitis or other minor injury every three years would be good, but that's just in my training, I don't have clients and I don't know how that looks as a rate to the rest of you, but I think it's not so bad.
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Old 08-20-2010, 05:36 AM   #26
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The POSE folks get injured after the study finished.
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Old 08-20-2010, 06:29 AM   #27
Garrett Smith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
It's pretty hard to push yourself into significant detrimental effects from overtraining, but it seems like you could have done it.

MOst chronic overtrainers go to the gym for like 2-3 hours at a time.. maybe 6-7 days a week.

That's not as heavy a burden as you would get if you did multiple workouts a day though. It's much more taxing doing that because you can "refresh" then come back harder. Single sessions are quite self limiting to some extent.

In fact, that's pretty impressive that you could beat yourself way far down in <4 months like that. You must have had some preexisting conditions or likely a combo of multiple workouts a day plus some poor nutrition and/or poor sleep and overstressing from other stuff.

Seriously though you need to take off for like 4-5 months like I did.
My guess is, and Chad please confirm/deny this, that you probably had quite a history of CF or some other type of intense-enough training before these 4 months...
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Old 08-20-2010, 08:23 AM   #28
Jarod Barker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
It's pretty hard to push yourself into significant detrimental effects from overtraining, but it seems like you could have done it.

MOst chronic overtrainers go to the gym for like 2-3 hours at a time.. maybe 6-7 days a week.

That's not as heavy a burden as you would get if you did multiple workouts a day though. It's much more taxing doing that because you can "refresh" then come back harder. Single sessions are quite self limiting to some extent.

In fact, that's pretty impressive that you could beat yourself way far down in <4 months like that. You must have had some preexisting conditions or likely a combo of multiple workouts a day plus some poor nutrition and/or poor sleep and overstressing from other stuff.

Seriously though you need to take off for like 4-5 months like I did.
Garrett is spot on with the CF. I had been following CF since 2007. And the first time I contacted Robb, it was because of my overly ambitious pursuit of CF. At that time, I was doing CF main page, CFE, and the SEAL fit WODs everyday. After talking to Robb, I took a month off, and when I came back, I PR'd on everything I did. My CFT went up something ridiculous like 200 pounds, and my o lifts jumped about 30 pounds each.

Recently though, I was following a program of 5 workouts per week, 2 days off, with a bias towards endurance with no strength specific workouts. The mistake I made though is that I threw myself into every workout at 100% effort and intensity. I'm talking balls to the wall maximum effort every time.

And when I talked to Robb in March, I understood that even if I was working out less time than I had previously, the 100% intensity all the time was just stupid. In my defense, I was trying to stand out for my performance against the other guys in the program, but that was dumb because look where it got me in the long term. So, when I tried to get back into training, I was going about 80% effort, keeping the workouts under 10 minutes, and one long endurance workout a week, and when I say long it's probably short by most standards, 2-3 mile run or 1000 to 2000 yard swim.

In any case, nutrition has consistently been tight. I don't like bread and pasta anyways, so it was easy for me to go full on Paleo. Sleep has always been an issue, but after in March I started actually scheduling "sleep time." I quite literally have a date with my bed. I've always had trouble falling asleep and staying asleep, even as a child, but I now have a scheduled 9 hour block with no other interruptions to try and get the most sleep I can. Stress on the other hand.... is and probably always will be an issue. My job has been about as stressful as they come. I'm sure it didn't help things at all.

Steven, what did you do for 4-5 months? No workouts at all? Did you do any recuperative therapies or anything? I just started rehab for my foot, but as you know, PT isn't exactly demanding at most offices. Electrostim, wrap it in a hot towel, turn your ankle up and down for 5 minutes, put ice on it, and then they bill you. Supposedly we're going to work up to walking on the treadmill for a mile. I was thinking about taking my own approach though and trying some massage therapy and acupuncture.
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Old 08-20-2010, 08:54 AM   #29
Steven Low
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Mostly mobility work... flexibility sometimes. Work on those types of weaknesses.
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Old 08-21-2010, 06:57 PM   #30
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Steven- I respectfully disagree. I see people as highly proficient of dismantling themselves from excessive volume and intensity.

Chad-
Brother, you have had multiple forays into this OR/OT land and the effects are not just cumulative but similar to heat exhaustion, they come back hard and fast without planned avoidance. It can literally take MONTHS to get one;s shit squared away and that is to just get healthy, it does not then open the door to more 100% training! Just because you feel better it's not a sign you are back to "normal".
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