Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Training > Fitness, Strength & CrossFit

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-01-2010, 01:10 PM   #11
Grissim Connery
Senior Member
 
Grissim Connery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 624
Default

I like the input. My curiosity surrounds conditioning primarily. Although KBs can get blurry between strength and conditioning, i typically envision OL for strength and KB for conditioning.

with that said, i normally just think of the snatch as double the distance of a swing. in that case, i'm making the weight roughly twice as hard. this seemed beneficial when i had a single 1 pood, 1.5 pood, and 2 pood. i recently got a pair of 1.5's and a pair of 2 poods. now that i really do have the option to do heavy swings, i debated which to focus on.
Grissim Connery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2010, 06:34 PM   #12
Peter Dell'Orto
Member
 
Peter Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 122
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissim Connery View Post
now that i really do have the option to do heavy swings, i debated which to focus on.
Is there a need for a focus?

I ask because my coach has me do both without really emphasizing one over the other. I program them myself for myself and other people by splitting swings into a primarily lower-body/hip dominant explosive movement and snatches into a more full-body explosive movement. I don't see them overlapping so completely, or interfering with one another enough that you'd need to focus on one over the other.

I might just be missing why you want to focus though, which is why I'm asking. What's driving the need to make one more important in your training than the other?
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
My workout log
Peter Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2010, 08:13 PM   #13
Jarod Barker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 320
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Weaver View Post
I get that. With this quote, I see how it could be construed. Don't mean to think for Chad, but this one could conceivably be taken more than one way.



I remember a Strength Coach Podcast with Jonathan Chaimberg (sp?), the strength coach to GSP and other top MMA fighters noting that he wasn't a huge fan of KBs, but that they did teach double extension well. Swings aren't much for teaching extension at the ankles, but they are beneficial for teaching the extension of the hip and knee.

In the end though, you're better off teaching someone how to jump before they touch a barbell or a KB. And, if you have to teach someone how to jump, they're f'ed and aren't notable athletes anyway.
Thanks Derek, I was referring to the extension. I was taught to do kettlebell swings just like I'm jumping, so it's the same hip extension. Instead of throwing the hips forward to swing the weight, I try to jump vertical. This seems like a good conditioning option to me because you can string them together and really get some momentum, and if I may refer back to another thread, everyone was just saying how doing multiple box jumps for metabolic conditioning was dangerous and detrimental for you knees, so stringing together kettlebell swings with a jumping style swing may be a good substitution for box jumps. Plus, you can always go up in weight and make it strength biased as well.
Jarod Barker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2010, 04:45 AM   #14
James Evans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London
Posts: 594
Default

Pavel reduced the movement pool for Enter the Kettlebell. I think this is a good thing from the point of view that everyone wants to do the sexy special exercises and learn the secretz before they master the basics.

Swings are very good (as I said above).

Snatches are great but elbows/hands can take a bashing.

Do not abandon swings for teh sexy special exercises.

Do not use the kb as a foothold into the world of Oly lifting.

Do not overthink the conundrum: do I swing? do I snatch? do I go heavy? do I go light?

Do it all.

Heavy swings for sets of 8s - lighter swings for reps or 15/15s or 30/30s - heavy swings and sprints. All good.


PS I like some of that Kenneth Jay VO2 Max stuff (although Viking Conditioning is a silly title). Haven't done enough of it to decide whether it will transform you into a ripped cardio machine ready to rape & pillage across the east coast of England but it does show you what you can do with a 16kg kb.
__________________
The rationale for reduced gin intake and the knowledge of the perils of alcoholism and attendant metabolic derangement has almost entirely come from physicians and researchers.
James Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2010, 07:37 AM   #15
Grissim Connery
Senior Member
 
Grissim Connery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 624
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Dell'Orto View Post
Is there a need for a focus?

I ask because my coach has me do both without really emphasizing one over the other. I program them myself for myself and other people by splitting swings into a primarily lower-body/hip dominant explosive movement and snatches into a more full-body explosive movement. I don't see them overlapping so completely, or interfering with one another enough that you'd need to focus on one over the other.

I might just be missing why you want to focus though, which is why I'm asking. What's driving the need to make one more important in your training than the other?
it's just really a time issue. although bjj is my primary focus, i find that most of my training benefits come from gymnastics work and jump roping. i squat now pretty regularly, and try to fit in DL and OL where it can go. thus fitting in KB can be difficult timewise, and i don't want a plethora of kb exercises. i know 2 exercises isn't that many, but a lot of times i just want to do one so i can get out of the gym faster (i spend way too much time in there anyways).

this is partially just because i'm having trouble coming up with a good split. i had been trying to make the split based on exercises, but now i'm seeing that basing upon equipment used makes things go way faster. i'm lookin at a 5 day cycle spread across 1.5-2 weeks. if it works out, i'll have a whole day of just kb and some gymnastic statics. then i'll snatch and swing to my hearts content.

i may add jumping over pumpkins per gant's recommendations.
Grissim Connery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2010, 09:06 AM   #16
James Evans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London
Posts: 594
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissim Connery View Post

i may add jumping over pumpkins per gant's recommendations.
Gant's starting a cert. He's not cheap mind.

Do you think the gymnastic stuff does the trick? If so why fix something that isn't broke?
__________________
The rationale for reduced gin intake and the knowledge of the perils of alcoholism and attendant metabolic derangement has almost entirely come from physicians and researchers.
James Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2010, 10:32 AM   #17
Grissim Connery
Senior Member
 
Grissim Connery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 624
Default

yeah, i kinda have trouble with that issue. i see BB's as way more superior to KB in developing lower body strength, and gymnastics as more superior than KB for upper body strength. KB has a nice middle ground and is great for time constraints. i admit that i have time constraints, but i enjoy gymnastics and BB's too much so i want to keep at them.

concerning conditioning, bjj gives plenty of metcon type training, and the only real outside condition i have to do frequently is LSD with jump ropes (about 30 min 3x/wk). if i do metcon type conditioning, KB can be fine, but honestly the crossfit workout "cindy" is all i really need (adjusting the 20min time to 10 min or whatever i'm feeling).

now i believe that KB are a great tool, but i feel that i already have some other tools that works better for each training requirement i need.

the 2 things that make me want to keep using KB are
1. i own them
2. they're fun (especially the fancy stuff)

what do you guys think?
Grissim Connery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2010, 04:12 AM   #18
James Evans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London
Posts: 594
Default

Ok, how about something like this:

Week 1

Day 1 (Mon)

Strength - Deadlift/TGU

Day 2 (Wednesday)

Condition - Cindy type stuff/KB conditioning work

Day 3 (Sat)

Strength - Gymnastic work

Week 2

Day 4 (Tuesday)

Condition - Cindy type stuff/KB conditioning work

Day 5 (Thurs/Fri)

Strength - Clean/Snatch/Gymnastics for upper body

Repeat for 2 week blocks


Robb wrote an article for PM a few years back about fight training and the basic template he was using for strength (as I recall) was a circuit of low rep:

DL
Ring Dip
Ring Pull Up

Think you could do well on that. Add in some swings (eg 3 sets of 15) as a warm up or maybe as a finisher. Or a set of 5 TGUs on each arm as a finisher.
__________________
The rationale for reduced gin intake and the knowledge of the perils of alcoholism and attendant metabolic derangement has almost entirely come from physicians and researchers.
James Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2010, 07:19 AM   #19
Peter Dell'Orto
Member
 
Peter Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 122
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissim Connery View Post
the 2 things that make me want to keep using KB are
1. i own them
2. they're fun (especially the fancy stuff)
That's two good reasons to use them. Especially the second. I'll take "fun and effective" over "effective" every time.

I'd personally just use one movement as accessory work each time. DL followed by swings one time, DLs followed by KB snatches or cleans another, stuff like that. If it's just accessory work, there isn't a need to prioritize, so just mix it up and enjoy it. I doubt your BJJ will suffer if you do swings half the time and snatches the other half instead of making one a priority over the other.
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
My workout log
Peter Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2010, 02:21 PM   #20
Grissim Connery
Senior Member
 
Grissim Connery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 624
Default

The new program i was thinking of is as so:
Note: Although this may not help BJJ that much, my primary S&C goal is to improve my planche and FL

Day 1:
- Squat (generally 5x5)
- Planche and FL work
--- 5x15sec holds of current progression
--- 5x5 assistance exercise (OA pushup, weighted deadhang pullup)
- Jumprope - 30min

Day 2:
- Ring work
--- cross holds - 5x 10-15s of current angle in progress
--- support holds - superset with cross holds
--- 5x5 RTO dips
--- BL - 5x15s holds of current progression
--- ice cream makers - 5x5 with current FL progression @ horizontal
- Repeat planch and FL work + assistance (substitue RTO ring pushups for OApushups)
- 30 min jump rope

Day 3:
- CJ 3x3, 3x1
- DL (generally 5x5)
- repeat planche and FL work + assistance
- 30 min jump rope

Day 4:
- HS work
--- 5x1min holds stomach to wall
--- 5 x handstand walks for distance
--- various presses to HS from floor or handbalancing platform
- repeat planche and FL work + assistance exercises
- jump rope 30 min

Day 5:
KB
--- still devising exercise selection scheme; i'm looking at swings, TGU, and OH lunges (because i've got some wack balance issues between my legs)
Cindy: 10-12 minutes long

The hardest thing to place is actually the DL. I'm not sure where to fit it. Also, i'd like to remove the assistance work for the planche and FL from day 2, but then it's annoying to hang the rings up on another day just to do one exercise.
Grissim Connery is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:44 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator