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Old 03-01-2011, 11:42 AM   #1001
Andrew Wilson
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Rhabdo Count: 107
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:16 PM   #1002
Bryan Kemper
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Andrew,

What is the true incidence of Crossfit induced rhabdo cases? Of the number of Crossfit workouts that have occurred over the past ten years, how many individuals have actually, medically been diagnosed with rhabdo? How many workouts have been done by how many people that have not had an occurrence of rhabdo.

I don't deny that 107 cases that you have been able to data mine over the internet is significant, but what does that mean from a statistical or epidemiological point of view? The only person that I have known to have been diagnosed with a mild case of rhabdo was the result of a Spinning class.

PS...I can't view your attachments from this computer, so I really don't know what the 107th case is at this point, but it really would not change my viewpoint.
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:18 PM   #1003
Bryan Kemper
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Rhabdo Count: 107 Epidemic!!
Epidemic defined: epidemic refers to a contagious, infectious or viral illness that spreads to many people in one geographic region that occurs in excess of the numbers of cases that would usually be expected
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:35 PM   #1004
Andrew Wilson
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Originally Posted by Bryan Kemper View Post
Andrew,

What is the true incidence of Crossfit induced rhabdo cases? Of the number of Crossfit workouts that have occurred over the past ten years, how many individuals have actually, medically been diagnosed with rhabdo? How many workouts have been done by how many people that have not had an occurrence of rhabdo.

I don't deny that 107 cases that you have been able to data mine over the internet is significant, but what does that mean from a statistical or epidemiological point of view? The only person that I have known to have been diagnosed with a mild case of rhabdo was the result of a Spinning class.

PS...I can't view your attachments from this computer, so I really don't know what the 107th case is at this point, but it really would not change my viewpoint.
No idea man. I was simply just curious to see how many people in the injury section posted about CrossFit giving them rhabdo on the CrossFit messageboards. At the time, I knew there had to be at least 7, and I was just going to post those 7 up and it would take a quick ten minutes, being it would just be a good dagger to post with a Greg Glassman quote on "evidence based fitness" and universal scalability. When I did the search 500 threads came up, which is the max of the CrossFit messageboard search engine. I eventually got to 20. Then 30. Two days later I got to 60. By the end of the week I broke 90 posts of CrossFitters revealing their full diagnoses and symptomatic signs of compartment syndrome and the onset of rhabdo. No one has ever looked at this. So I thought this was interesting that no one put effort into actually counting alone on the messageboards. Then I started google searching and facebook searching. The fascinating thing is that they're all caused by the same workout, if not similar workout with exercises, and it just repeats over and over and over again, and everyone is just ignoring it.
I've been apart of communal case study surveys before, and to actually get a precise ratio every affiliate would have to be surveyed since the last 8 years with every client and every medical record.
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:46 PM   #1005
Tom Seryak
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Originally Posted by Bryan Kemper View Post
Andrew,

What is the true incidence of Crossfit induced rhabdo cases? Of the number of Crossfit workouts that have occurred over the past ten years, how many individuals have actually, medically been diagnosed with rhabdo? How many workouts have been done by how many people that have not had an occurrence of rhabdo.

I don't deny that 107 cases that you have been able to data mine over the internet is significant, but what does that mean from a statistical or epidemiological point of view? The only person that I have known to have been diagnosed with a mild case of rhabdo was the result of a Spinning class.

PS...I can't view your attachments from this computer, so I really don't know what the 107th case is at this point, but it really would not change my viewpoint.
Maybe a better question is how many "CrossFitters" have had at least mild cases of rhabdo...or came dangerously close to inducing rhabdo...that didn't know it. When I first started CrossFit and before I opened my own affiliate, I did a workout at another local affiliate that left my abs swollen and extremely sore for almost 2 weeks. I urine never turned brown, but apparently that symptom is not always present. That was 3 years ago. At the time, i had never heard of rhabdo, and if i didn't have a mild case of it, it had to have been right on the edge. I also remember doing workouts such as "Eva" that left my biceps and lats so sore that I could barely wash my face and hair. Luckily, I am not so stupid as to continue such workouts.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:00 PM
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:13 PM   #1006
Steven Madison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Seryak View Post
Maybe a better question is how many "CrossFitters" have had at least mild cases of rhabdo...or came dangerously close to inducing rhabdo...that didn't know it. When I first started CrossFit and before I opened my own affiliate, I did a workout at another local affiliate that left my abs swollen and extremely sore for almost 2 weeks. I urine never turned brown, but apparently that symptom is not always present. That was 3 years ago. At the time, i had never heard of rhabdo, and if i didn't have a mild case of it, it had to have been right on the edge. I also remember doing workouts such as "Eva" that left my biceps and lats so sore that I could barely wash my face and hair. Luckily, I am not so stupid as to continue such workouts.
One of the workouts that my "trainer" scaled me down to this:

March 14, 2008

5 rounds for time:

9 reps 85 lb hang squat clean (scaled from 155lbs)
18 ring rows (scaled down from rope climbs)

17:43

90 ring rows and at that time I struggled with 2 dead hang pullups. This was scaled, I mentioned that right, Bryan?

I couldn't straighten my arms for almost a week.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:15 PM   #1007
Pat McElhone
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Originally Posted by Bryan Kemper View Post
Andrew,

What is the true incidence of Crossfit induced rhabdo cases? Of the number of Crossfit workouts that have occurred over the past ten years, how many individuals have actually, medically been diagnosed with rhabdo? How many workouts have been done by how many people that have not had an occurrence of rhabdo.

I don't deny that 107 cases that you have been able to data mine over the internet is significant, but what does that mean from a statistical or epidemiological point of view? The only person that I have known to have been diagnosed with a mild case of rhabdo was the result of a Spinning class.

PS...I can't view your attachments from this computer, so I really don't know what the 107th case is at this point, but it really would not change my viewpoint.

Brian,

You mentioned you are "medical" in the AF. How many cases of Rhabdo are there each year in the AF? I know that is a big number, but ask a renal specialist. I was an ICU nurse at Ft. Benning many years ago. In my 3 years there, I saw 2 cases, there may have been more than that, that is what I saw.

Ft. Benning is where a lot of training...infantry basic/advanced/ranger/airborne, etc. Alot of guys going through there doing pretty physical demanding stuff.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:25 PM   #1008
Pat McElhone
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I asked CF awhile if they were interested in starting a Rhabdo database. No answer.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:34 PM   #1009
Arien Malec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Madison View Post
One of the workouts that my "trainer" scaled
...
I couldn't straighten my arms for almost a week.
Zen Master CJ Kim sez:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Kim
This is what makes Crossfit so great -- all it takes is a weekend and a few thousand dollars and someone can become the next Coach, forging elite fitness in the masses. Welcome to the family.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:47 PM   #1010
Bryan Kemper
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[QUOTE=Steven Madison;87582]One of the workouts that my "trainer" scaled me down to this:

March 14, 2008

5 rounds for time:

9 reps 85 lb hang squat clean (scaled from 155lbs)
18 ring rows (scaled down from rope climbs)

17:43

90 ring rows and at that time I struggled with 2 dead hang pullups. This was scaled, I mentioned that right, Bryan?

QUOTE]
Steven,

I don't know your training background or conditioning status at the time, so it may or may not have been too much volume for you. At least you were not expected to do a large volume of jumping towel pullups with slow negatives until you "felt the burn."

I have had many workouts that have left me wrecked both before and after starting Crossfit. Many of the before workouts was too much volume too soon resulting in major DOMS. I have had many CF WODs that have wrecked me, but not so that I have had to curtail training or sought medical attention.

How much of an awareness of the condition "rhabdo" has resulted in DOMS being described as "mild rhabdo?" Muscle soreness is a side effect of training....
I couldn't straighten my arms for almost a week.[/
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