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Old 04-12-2007, 05:18 AM   #11
Mike ODonnell
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Originally Posted by Ron Nelson View Post
Good points MOD.

The other thing that kills me is charging suckers $50/hr or more and then watching them warm up on the stairclimber for 20 min.
If it was me, and it never would be, I'd make the trainer go get me a drink of water.

I know the trainers on this site (even certain trainers with the initials MOD) would never rip people off like that.
You are absolutely right....I charge $75 for a 10min session.....

My favorite are the trainers charging $50 an hour....having 4-5 clients at one time....and not really paying attention to any of them as he is on the phone chatting away....sitting on one machine and acting like a traffic cop telling people which machine to go to next....and then the clients say "Ohhh, he's such a great trainer...I really feel it". Really? Was it the 10 min of solo lunges that maybe did it, not him?? I think it pisses me off more that I can't ditch my morals and make $250/hr....on the other hand...can't put all the blame all trainers as they are a product of their environment...a gym taking 40%, only offering long term training packages and putting 15 trainers on the floor so they all have to compete and get as many sales as possible...I can't even imagine what it is like in CA with all the "I trained a movie star" trainers and their egos for $200/hour....must be using solid gold 2lb weights for those rear delt raises...
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:19 AM
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:02 PM   #12
Robb Wolf
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So...complexes and high volume multi-joint movements increase BMR the most. Right on the heels we find hi intensity intervals.

What we appear to be looking for is muscular damage that requires a raised metabolic rate to repair, deep inroads with regards to substrate availability, particularly glycogen which is again energy intensive to restore and a hormonal environment that favors fat over glucose for most of these repairs.

Here is a question I have:

Is something like a Frellen (400m run, 15 thrusters, 15 pull-ups) the BEST option for fat loss? Best being return on investment time-wise.

Or do we get better mileage out of some density training (10 min of thrusters and pull-ups...body rows for the heavy folks) and then intervals on the C2 rower?

And in the case of the Frellen a steady state WO (3 rounds for time) or a Power Bias (2min rest between rounds)?


My gut sense is the classic CF WOD...a run or row mixed with some full body movements is the best return on investment. Thoughts?
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:10 PM   #13
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I think unfortunately in many cases the question of what is best has to be considered within the question of what can the client handle. Even if a CF WOD is best in ideal circumstances, there are plenty of folks, particularly in the weight loss crowd, who simply cannot perform them. When scaled to their abilities, they resemble the WOD so little I have to wonder how effective they are. In the case of extremely reduced volume, it's clear there must be some supplemental work, e.g. intervals.

So yes I would say the classic run/row WOD is ideal, but for those who can't handle adequate volume/ROM/etc. to maximize intensity, intervals following the scaled version is the best we can do.
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:42 PM   #14
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like Greg said...I think the highest intensity a person can handle is probably the best option....I've found good results with people mixing between work effort of 3-4 min with 1 min recovery for lower intense intervals and 30sec on/30 sec recovery change exercises if doing more intense circuits with 5-10 stations......I like to try and get the more intense sessions with me...and have them do less intense intervals (bike/treadmill) on their own.....either way the energy demands will be pretty high, but I do think programs with recovery and rest protocols are needed....especially for less conditioned people as I want more energy output for the weighted exercises...for real beginners you could also just do a standard weight training only for 20min, deplete all muscle glycogen with compound movements with reps of 10-12, short rest periods...and then send them to the treadmill to walk uphill at 60% MHR for another 20 min as they burn more fat (since they have no more glycogen and are now living in the oxidative energy system)......that and fat loss is 85%+ nutrition....
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:36 PM   #15
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Not at all specific enough...

I want to know (along with 50 other people who posted the same question) clearly how to distinguish b/w HIAnaerobicIT and HIAerobicIT and at what work to rest interval protocol. Also, sample routines for each proposed span of workout time would not have been unwelcome.

The editor in me would have sent Alwyn back with a sheet of notes.

Then again, perhaps this is just article 1 in a 2 or 3 part series? I can hope.
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:52 PM   #16
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Based on that article I would guess you would want circuits lasting 3-4 min with a 1-2 min recovery and repeat....or SS 5-10 compound exercises of reps 5-10 and rest and repeat SS circuit.....or run 800meter sprints....all good variations to go with....
Mike, if your comments are in reference to the following study, I'm not sure that I agree with your conclussion, or perhaps I misunderstand you (or the study).

TWO WEEKS OF HIGH-INTENSITY AEROBIC INTERVAL TRAINING INCREASES THE CAPACITY FOR FAT OXIDATION DURING EXERCISE IN WOMEN
Jason L Talanian1*, Stuart D.R. Galloway2, George J.F. Heigenhauser3, Arend Bonen1, and Lawrence L. Spriet1

The study, as I understand it, specifically looks at the effects of a particular training program (10 intervals consisting of 4 minutes work and 2 minutes rest) on SUBSTRATE UTILIZATION DURING EXERCISE. While VO2peak did increase, I don't think that was any earth shaking news. Several points are in order:

1. The study used ONE training protocol. While it showed that that particular protocal achieved the specified effect, i.e. improved fat utilization DURING exercize, it does NOT show that the particular protocol employed is the OPTIMAL protocol to achieve that result.
2. This particular study does NOT show that the protocol used is the optimal protocol for some other training objective, e.g. improvement in VO2max, sprinting speed, faster 400m time, etc.
3. This study does NOT demonstrate that the protocol employed is ideal for fat loss because (a) it does not compare this protocol with any others, and (b) substrate utilization DURING exercise is likely LESS important, in terms of fat loss than, than EPOC. While increased utilization of fatty acids during exercise is important for some performances and may be beneficial for fat loss, if the primary training objective is fat loss (and you likely have clients with various goals), let's compare the effects of studies on total fat lost, not just on fat utilization during 60 minutes of exercise.
4. I think Jamilla raises a great question regarding anaerobic vs aerobic HIIT. In answer to her question, I think BOTH types of training have their time and place and the W:R ratios and total times depend on the particualr training goals as well as the level of conditioning of the athlete.
(Jamilla, I know that's pretty vague, but it's 2:50 AM and I have class in the morning - will try to add more later.)
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Old 04-18-2007, 04:11 PM   #17
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Mike-
Great stuff! Flesh that out more if you get time, super interested.
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Old 04-18-2007, 07:47 PM   #18
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Are we over-thinking this a bit here?

Seriously, I'm kind of surprised to think that there is a difference between High Intensity (Anaerobic) Training and High Intensity (Aerobic) Training . . . in fact, I would have said that if it's "High Intensity", it pretty much has to be "Anaerobic", doesn't it? If you can do the work using only aerobic metabolism, is it still "high intensity"?

I get the idea that cranking up EPOC is a big part of Alwyn's strategy . . . is it really that important to fine-tune the workout to the nth degree?

For me, 8 sets of 1-minute on / 1-minute off seems to do it reasonably nicely . . . the 1-minute "on" is all-out for whatever I'm doing (uphill sprints, 300 meters on the C2, go hard on the bike, whatever), and the 1-minute 'off' is just "cruising" until I get my breath back. 1 minute isn't always enough, so I tend to start the later rounds not fully recovered, which makes them 'interesting'.

Does it really need to be more complex than this? I'm thinking I've got Pareto's rule in my favor here . . .
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Old 04-18-2007, 08:17 PM   #19
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Diet is 85%+ of fat loss.....the other stuff while fun to talk about is not amounting to huge calorie burns over periods of time...as EPOC and all that stuff is kinda overrated.....eating right and burning fat all day through maintaining a strong metabolism is more key.....the only benefit of all that HIT stuff is the release of GH post workout. Yes we are overthinking HIT.....as people can still lose weight and gain muscle without it. (from a fat loss point of view) ....30sec ...2min ...4min .... whatever....it will all most likely do what you want from it. Unless there is a study on which has a greater release of GH pwo. Either way...we are probably fighting over a 100 cal difference.
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Old 04-18-2007, 08:34 PM   #20
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Default Ultra Short Interval Training

Hey Robb, thanks for the note. I'm busy on a project for the next few weeks, but since a lot of this stuff on the forum is an ongoing educational process, I guess there's no rush. Sometimes it's better to have good info a litter later than bad info a little sooner. Anyway, on the topic of interval training, I was interested if anyone has had any experience with ultra short interval training. I learned this concept several years ago and and have had some great workouts using it and it makes a great deal of sense for some of my athletes as PART of their training during PARTICULAR times of the year. Basically, it involves 8-12 second work intervals and 18-22 second rest intervals for activities such as running, treadmill, wall ball, etc. (You might want to look at it as a Reverse Tabata). I need to go back and look at the basic science behind everything, but my recollection is that there is a connection with the oxygen carried by myoglobin. Anyway, once you zone in on the correct W:R times (and they are usually in the range I noted - DO NOT USE A WORK TIME OVER 15 SECONDS!), the rest should be adequate such that work intensity can be maintained at maximal or near maximal levels as lactate buildup should not be a problem (if it is, adjust W and R times), but your respiratory rate will go thru the roof. It is a very different experience. If it is important that the athlete's skill movements are performed correctly, i.e. that they don't deteriorate due to local muscle factors, this works very well. I do not use it exclusively because I train a number of wrestlers and they need to perform physically and mentally under conditions associated with high blood lactate levels - although in my experience too much interval training associated with high lactate levels is very difficult to tolerate. The ultra short intervals are a nice addition/alternative. Will add more on this later, but was interested to know if others have experience - good or bad - with this type of training. If you haven't treid it, give it a go. I usually aim for 30-40 work intervals, ie 15-20 minutes of work.
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